SMALL WARS COUNCIL
Go Back   Small Wars Council > Conflicts -- Current & Future > Other, By Region > Europe

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-18-2010   #21
slapout9
Council Member
 
slapout9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post

From the article, underlines are my own. It sounds to me like significant segments of the populace perceive their lot to be one where they have little hope to effect change though legitimate means; where they feel they are treated with disrespect as a matter of status; they cannot receive justice under the law; and likely feel that the government does not represent them or their interests (ie, lacks legitimacy as in regard to them). This is the witch's brew from which most insurgency comes.
Highlights by me.
It is not just France it here in America and it is growing!
slapout9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010   #22
Bob's World
Council Member
 
Bob's World's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,703
Default

It is every society; France, America, whereever. The key is to understand the signs, and how to build effective safety valves and off ramps for insurgency.

In merica we are blessed by having a system of governance designed by a bunch of insurgents who found themselves suddenly in the counterinsurgency business.

So, we have a government that is by design happily dysfunctional; with an armed and informed populace ever watching with a wary eye. We still trust in they system to produce leaders who draw their legitimacy from the populace, and that we have the means to change the same on a certain timeline. Do we like what we get? No populace does. This isn't about "like" and "dislike" or "effective" and "ineffective." It is much more primal and goes to core human higher order needs for respect, justice and a sense of having some control over ones destiny. All tailored by culture and society (No American can assess what is right for a Frenchman, let alone an Afghan or Sudanese); but we can trust them to be able to determine that for themselves and not second guess them in order to impose what we think is best.
__________________
Robert C. Jones
Intellectus Supra Scientia
(Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

"The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)
Bob's World is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010   #23
Dayuhan
Council Member
 
Dayuhan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Latitude 17° 5' 11N, Longitude 120° 54' 24E, altitude 1499m. Right where I want to be.
Posts: 3,136
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
It is every society; France, America, whereever. The key is to understand the signs, and how to build effective safety valves and off ramps for insurgency.
The French situation illustrates a problem that often complicates this equation: the steps necessary to placate one segment of the populace may infuriate another segment. In this case the less restrictive wage and tenure policies needed to generate employment for unskilled and semi-skilled workers are absolute anathema to the left and the organized labor sector, which have more clout in French politics than the immigrants and the domestic underclass. The government can't do what it needs to do to solve one problem without generating more effective (if likely less dramatic) resistance from other sectors.
Dayuhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010   #24
jps2
Council Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: France
Posts: 22
Default

I will try to explain immigration policies in France from 1 century, highlighting for you the key points, IMO.

- Until the WWII, immigrants where mainly Europeans, mostly Italians and Spanish. They worked in rural economy, living in small towns.
- After the 50's, most of immigrants comes from our ex-colonies (Vietnam, Africa, Maghreb [Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco]) : most of them were to close to French to stay safely in their countries.
- From then 70's, we still have some few political refugees but most are economical immigrants. French law says that babies born on French lands can become French citizen, choice done by most of parents. The parents were (and still are) workers in building, automobile, they live in suburbs concentrating tensions in some small perimeters (NE Paris by example)

Immigrants from the 70's were here for and had jobs. But their children, who are now adults suffers from having a stable job. We can discuss for hours the reasons of the unemployment, the facts are there.

More than 50% of unemployment + lack of consideration = tension
Tension + accident seen an unjustified = riot

The accidents are mostly caused by car drivers without papers or the underground economy actors wanting to protect their territories from police or opponents.
jps2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2010   #25
Dayuhan
Council Member
 
Dayuhan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Latitude 17° 5' 11N, Longitude 120° 54' 24E, altitude 1499m. Right where I want to be.
Posts: 3,136
Default

Economic changes have had an impact. It no longer makes sense to import workers to fill low-skill low-wage manufacturing jobs; the labor intensive low-wage industries have all moved to Asia. A technology-intensive and largely post-industrial economy provides very limited opportunity for unskilled labor, especially when government demands that it be compensated with high wages.
Dayuhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2010   #26
M-A Lagrange
Council Member
 
M-A Lagrange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In Barsoom, as a fact!
Posts: 976
Default

If Paris is burning what about London or Birmingham on a saturday night.

Restricting the issue to economical and immigration problematic is, I believe, a little light. (but makes long time I do not live in France except for vacations...).
The problematic is much more complexe, but I agree with JPS2 on the analyse:

More than 50% of unemployment + lack of consideration = tension
Tension + accident seen an unjustified = riot

But also, do not put all eggs in the same bag. There are plenty good guys in the banlieux.
M-A Lagrange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2010   #27
davidbfpo
Council Member
 
davidbfpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11,170
Default Saturday night?

MA stated:
Quote:
If Paris is burning what about London or Birmingham on a saturday night?
In UK cities we doe have incidents of burning, most often stolen cars being "torched", this is almost always without civil disorder. We do have civil disorder, which is invariably alcohol-related over the weekend, but rarely anything approaching the recent French incident. Shootings and stabbings are a significantly bigger issue in both cities, especially London where fatal stabbings are alas a regular occurrence.

Sometimes we avoid all of these problems by the appearance of "General Rain".
__________________
davidbfpo
davidbfpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2011   #28
davidbfpo
Council Member
 
davidbfpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11,170
Default French suburbs turn away from state and towards Islam: scientist reports

Found via KoW a respected academic's report, on two suburbs of paris that exploded in rioting in 2005; which starts with:
Quote:
Local communities in France’s immigrant suburbs increasingly organize themselves on Islamic lines rather than following the values of the secular republic, according to a major new sociological study.

The resulting study − “Suburbs of the Republic” − found that religious institutions and practices are increasingly displacing those of the state and the French Republic, which has a strong secular tradition.

(Ends with) The author warns: “France’s future depends on its ability to re-integrate the suburbs into the national project.”
Link:http://english.alarabiya.net/article...06/170484.html

The actual report appears not to be available, for those interested the think tank's website is:http://www.institutmontaigne.org/site/page.php
__________________
davidbfpo

Last edited by davidbfpo; 10-08-2011 at 01:19 PM.
davidbfpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012   #29
davidbfpo
Council Member
 
davidbfpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11,170
Default A warm night in August

Small riot in an Amiens suburb last night:
Quote:
Sixteen police officers were injured in the clashes with up to 100 youths, some of whom threw fireworks, large-sized shot and projectiles, say police. Reports suggest the unrest may have been triggered after police arrested a man for dangerous driving. (Citing the Mayor) There have been regular incidents here but it has been years since we've known a night as violent as this with so much damage done...
Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19256122 and slightly different report and this:
Quote:
On the eve of Francois Hollande's 100th day in power, gangs of youths used live bullets to shoot at police...
Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...a-warfare.html
__________________
davidbfpo
davidbfpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014   #30
davidbfpo
Council Member
 
davidbfpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11,170
Default French urban policing observed

A short article based on a new book:
Quote:
The following is an excerpt from Didier Fassin's Enforcing Order: An Ethnography of Urban Policing, a study conducted over 15 months of field work that depicts the hostile relationship between youths and police in riotous France. Fassin, an ethnographer, worked closely with anti-crime squads in one of the largest precincts in the Paris region to show a unique perspective into the lives of police tasked with enforcing social order in the name of public security.
Link:http://www.policeone.com/training/ar...volatile-city?

The French state has a long history of confronting dissent, protest and apparently what other LE agencies would call anti-social behavior. Their approach is far from 'community policing' as this passage shows:
Quote:
As to the relationship between the local population and law enforcement, it was consistently deteriorating. There were constant stops and frisks, always targeting the same young men, which had no effect on illegal activities but raised tensions. When a resident called the police about a mundane problem such as a noisy gathering in a square, the response was so brutal and, ultimately, counterproductive that most had given up making complaints.
__________________
davidbfpo
davidbfpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014   #31
AdamG
Council Member
 
AdamG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hiding from the Dreaded Burrito Gang
Posts: 2,168
Default

Quote:
French interior minister warned on Sunday that the possibility of terror attacks by the hundreds of European jihadists returning home from Syria represents "the greatest danger we will have to face in the coming years".

"We, French and Europeans, could be overwhelmed by this phenomenon, given its scale," Manuel Valls said in a television interview.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rom-Syria.html
__________________
A scrimmage in a Border Station
A canter down some dark defile
Two thousand pounds of education
Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


http://i.imgur.com/IPT1uLH.jpg
AdamG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2014   #32
davidbfpo
Council Member
 
davidbfpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11,170
Default The French Intifada: The Long War Between France and Its Arabs

A NYT review of a new book 'The French Intifada: The Long War Between France and Its Arabs' by Professor Andrew Hussey, a British academic based in Paris:http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/29/bo...ssey.html?_r=0

Hard to find the best quote, so here is one passage:
Quote:
According to one finding, French Muslims make up the largest fraction of European jihadists in Syria. Hussey reports that Muslims are 70 percent of inmates in French prisons — an “engine room of Islamist radicalism.”

Is this a cultural or socioeconomic problem? Hussey argues skillfully against commentators who reduce all discontents to poverty. Both economic and #cultural factors are surely at play. France has struggled with obdurate unemployment rates for a long time, yet the globalization of aggressive Islamic radicalism in past decades merits no less consideration.
Link to Amazon, note it is possible to order via SWJ and so it gets a commission:http://www.amazon.com/French-Intifada-Between-France-Arabs/dp/0865479216/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404069004&sr=1-1&keywords=andrew+hussey+the+french+intifada

http://www.amazon.co.uk/French-Intif...rench+intifada
__________________
davidbfpo

Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-29-2014 at 09:30 PM.
davidbfpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2014   #33
Bob's World
Council Member
 
Bob's World's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,703
Default

The issue that France must come to grip with is not why most European foreign fighters come from France - but rather why most French prisoners are Muslim.

I suspect the reasons are very closely related, and have little to do with any "radicalization" occurring once they are in prison, but rather the radicalization of the governance that sent them there to begin with.
__________________
Robert C. Jones
Intellectus Supra Scientia
(Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

"The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)
Bob's World is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2014   #34
davidbfpo
Council Member
 
davidbfpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11,170
Default The French intifada: France and its Muslims

This time a left-wing reviewer, a former (disgraced) Labour MP and he starts with:
Quote:
Andrew Hussey’s (book) on France, its Muslim population and the challenge of Islamism—is the most interesting book about France to have been published in English for many years.
Apparently Hussey is ready to say the unthinkable, e.g. regarding a French colonial hero, Marshal Hubert Lyautey, French Governor General of Morocco for the first quarter of the 20th century:
Quote:
this highly regarded French statesman-soldier was a prolific sodomite and paedophile who buggered everyone from his military aides-de-camp to passing Arab urchins.
Link:http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ar...nd-its-muslims
__________________
davidbfpo
davidbfpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2015   #35
davidbfpo
Council Member
 
davidbfpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11,170
Default The French Intifada by Andrew Hussey

Finally got to read my copy and really pleased I did. Most of the book is a succinct history of France's bloody colonisation of North Africa (Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria mainly).

The urban "hotspots" for tension and bouts of rioting known as the banlieues. The author has a key passage explaining why:
Quote:
There is a lot of anger and a lot of young men willing to turn themselves into Soldiers for God. Most importantly, the rioters, wreckers, even the killers of the banlieues are not looking for reform or revolution. They are looking for revenge.
__________________
davidbfpo

Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-15-2015 at 04:51 PM.
davidbfpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015   #36
davidbfpo
Council Member
 
davidbfpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11,170
Default The Other France: Are the suburbs of Paris incubators of terrorism?

A long New Yorker article, presumably in preparation till the Thalys train attack; in places pessimsitic and then optimistic:http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...e-other-france

Interesting passages on what is happening in French prisons.
__________________
davidbfpo
davidbfpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015   #37
davidbfpo
Council Member
 
davidbfpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11,170
Default Moderator's Note

Note there is a separate thread on French CT, which was last updated in 2014:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ad.php?t=15299

There's also a thread on the Charlie Hebdo attacks:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ad.php?t=21602

It is too hard to separate urban rioting from terrorism, so all the threads remain unchanged.
__________________
davidbfpo
davidbfpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2017   #38
davidbfpo
Council Member
 
davidbfpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 11,170
Default After a police 'rape' "they" are looking for revenge.

Scarcely believable:
Quote:
Protests have broken out in Paris’s economically-deprived outskirts (the banlieues) in recent weeks, some of which have degenerated into riots. The unrest was sparked by a shocking case of alleged police brutality in which a 22-year-old black man was allegedly set upon by four police officers in the north-eastern suburb of Aulnay-sous-Bois. Now one of those officers is under investigation for rape.

One of the officers has now been charged with rape, having been accused of thrusting a truncheon into Théo’s anus while he was on the ground, causing severe injuries. The officer maintains that Théo’s injury happened accidentally and an initial investigation by the police reportedly found there was “insufficient evidence” to support the claim that it was a deliberate act.
Link:https://theconversation.com/a-horrific-accusation-against-police-reignites-anger-in-paris-suburbs-73314?
An earlier BBC report:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38957953
__________________
davidbfpo

Last edited by davidbfpo; 02-22-2017 at 10:06 AM. Reason: 23,181v when re-opened today.
davidbfpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Urban / City Warfare (merged thread) DDilegge Futurists & Theorists 157 08-03-2017 01:32 PM
Side story on the recent gun spree Fuchs Americas 281 02-27-2013 08:21 PM
Asymmetric Policing OfTheTroops Law Enforcement 16 04-05-2012 05:26 AM
Air Force Operations in Urban Environments Report SWJED Futurists & Theorists 0 01-28-2006 04:10 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9. ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Registered Users are solely responsible for their messages.
Operated by, and site design © 2005-2009, Small Wars Foundation