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Old 04-27-2008   #1
AdamG
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Default Chicago & Policing (new title)

1) CHICAGO (AP) — Police planned to increase patrols and put SWAT officers and specialized units on the streets over the weekend, a show of force aimed at deterring violence like the three dozen shootings that left nine people dead last weekend.
"Weather permitting, we will have our helicopter up," said police spokeswoman Monique Bond, who said Thursday night was relatively quiet, with only four shootings, none fatal.
Meanwhile, religious leaders said they had persuaded some churches to open their doors in the afternoons and evenings to protect people from gunfire.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...ivfNgD909FTAG0

2) Chicago Police Supt. Jody Weis on Friday swore in two dozen district commanders as well as other officers assigned new positions in a sweeping shake-up of the department's ranks and called on them to lead by example.

*
Weis replaced the commanders of 21 of the city's 25 districts and made a number of other job changes. Four were shuffled to command other districts, seven were promoted and 10 others were demoted, moved laterally or will retire.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...tory?track=rss


3) Mayor Richard Daley said Saturday Chicago police officers will he armed with high-powered assault rifles when they're on the streets fighting gangs and other criminals.

"Many times they're outgunned, to be very frank," Daley said at an event in the Englewood neighborhood. "When they come to a scene, someone has a semi fully-automatic weapon and you have a little pistol, uh, good luck."

The city's police officers carry pistols, and Daley suggested they will start carrying "M4 rifles."

Police spokeswoman Monique Bond said the department still is working out details about the M4 carbines.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,2104512.story
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Old 04-27-2008   #2
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The entire violence agrument is being framed as an anti-gun argument instead of the crime issues of indigent criminal enterprise.
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Old 04-27-2008   #3
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The entire violence agrument is being framed as an anti-gun argument instead of the crime issues of indigent criminal enterprise.
Orwellian in it's scope, ain't it?
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Old 04-27-2008   #4
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Speaking as a very distinct minority within the SWJ - a pro-gun control liberal - who also resides in Chicago during the summer, I have to say (1) I like Da Mare, and (2) I don't think you can try to deal with the issue of gang violence without gun control.

Look at the parallel - we try to control weapons when we're doing stability ops in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else, don't we? At least to a degree. I agree that the problem isn't entirely guns, but it is at least part of the issue here. Good on Daley.

And finally, you know you live in an exciting place when the police spokeswoman calls a Thursday night with eight (nonfatal) shootings "a relatively quiet evening."

Regards,

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Old 04-27-2008   #5
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Question UHH actually one question

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
Look at the parallel - we try to control weapons when we're doing stability ops in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else, don't we? At least to a degree. I agree that the problem isn't entirely guns, but it is at least part of the issue here. Good on Daley.

And finally, you know you live in an exciting place when the police spokeswoman calls a Thursday night with eight (nonfatal) shootings "a relatively quiet evening."

Regards,

Matt
Don't most Iraqi's own weapons and we don't take the standard ones from them but mainly the big super nasty kinds?

At least I thought thats what I've heard and read.
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Old 04-27-2008   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
Speaking as a very distinct minority within the SWJ - a pro-gun control liberal - who also resides in Chicago during the summer, I have to say (1) I like Da Mare, and (2) I don't think you can try to deal with the issue of gang violence without gun control.

Look at the parallel - we try to control weapons when we're doing stability ops in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else, don't we? At least to a degree. I agree that the problem isn't entirely guns, but it is at least part of the issue here. Good on Daley.

And finally, you know you live in an exciting place when the police spokeswoman calls a Thursday night with eight (nonfatal) shootings "a relatively quiet evening."
Politics aside Matt, I have no problem with your position. I disagree based on a few simple facts.

1) The number of people dying due to violence may seem horrific but it is still way below epidemic levels. The actual violence numbers have not changed significantly just the reporting of them. That is politics.

2) The secondary change is that they reporting this as "school related" shootings though NONE of the actual shootings happened near or in a school.

This is a gang related fight and like any gang related violence weapons have less to do with the situation than the inter-gang politics.

Chicago already has some of the most severe weapons laws of any city in America. If gun-laws worked then Chicago and Washington DC should be some of the safest cities in America. The Chicago authorities though are simply using this minor outbreak of violence in a particular population for political expediency.

There is also some evidence that the city officials do not want to stop violence just transfer it from the gangs involved to sanctioned authority by the police who will have high power rifles. Because, violence by the police doesn't count I guess.
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Old 04-27-2008   #7
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Default There's considerably more to the story...

Originally posted by MattC:
Quote:
Speaking as a very distinct minority within the SWJ - a pro-gun control liberal - who also resides in Chicago during the summer, I have to say (1) I like Da Mare, and (2) I don't think you can try to deal with the issue of gang violence without gun control.
Richie Daley ("Da Mare") is a leader, but this is all about gun control, and not just in Chicago. He's pushing for statewide restrictions to match Chicago's existing restrictions (which are literally confiscatory), and the rest of Illinois just isn't having it. So, now it's time to justify the argument.

Problem is, gun enforcement has been more of the problem. Know this for a fact, because I sat on a Federal GJ out of the Northern District of IL hearing cases, and guns are being transported into Chicago (literally by the hundreds), but very few of them are coming in from other areas in IL. Gangs were bringing them in from places down along the gulf coast (our cases), where the gangs were paying people $50 per semi auto that they purchase, and turn over to the gangs ("Ten gets you 5"). We were a small part of putting a stop to those pipelines - Federal cases, hard time. There's certainly more of it still going on.

Matt, a bigger part of the problem is Cook County government. Remember, the City of Chicago doesn't run the judicial system - it's Cook County or State of Illinois. There's where the real problems exist. The corruption and patronage is so bad in those areas, and it has so hamstrung law enforcement efforts in different areas, that I am just amazed that people just sit there and take it.

Sorry, but after getting a clear view from behind the curtain, this is all just hype.

Last edited by Watcher In The Middle; 04-27-2008 at 05:39 PM. Reason: If Only I Could Spell...
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Old 04-27-2008   #8
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The term "gun control" has been muddled. Does it mean legislation aimed at preventing certain individuals from possessing certain types of firearms? Or does it mean the act of preventing certain individuals from possessing certain firearms? There is a huge difference. The former is a goal. The latter is an achievement.

Gun control legislation can only be viewed as a viable approach if we can reasonably expect such laws to have their intended effect, and if that intended effect serves some purpose. The intended effect is to disarm criminals. The purpose is to improve public safety. Gun control for its own sake was not the original purpose behind the movement. It is the purpose today.

The popular gun control activist movement seeks legislation that casts too wide of a net. This causes some serious problems. Banning the possession of firearms for all residents because of the foolishness of a small minority of residents is generally not appreciated by the law abiding folks. It is also highly doubtful that it has the intended effect of disarming the criminals. I live in DC and my firearms are locked in a case in my parent's basement 500 miles away because of our "gun control" laws. The laws compel me to disarm, but not the criminals. That is why there is still a huge problem in DC with gun-related (aka, armed criminal-related) crimes.

The single-minded focus on a legislative approach to abridge the rights of all gun owners only succeeds in polarizing the debate into gun owners' rights versus legislative activism. Most people do not commit gun crimes, so when their right to own a firearm is infringed upon because some activists had a bright idea, they predictably get defensive. The obvious target of their ire is the activist movement that seeks to disarm them. In other words, the gun control activists have created political opposition for no good reason, rather than working towards a shared goal of improving public safety. I see no way for these two factions to ever get to the point of working together to disarm criminals unless the activists make a good faith concession by dropping their attempts to infringe upon the rights of gun owners. So long as the gun control through legislation movement seeks to cast too wide of a net to catch a small group of deviants with a policy of highly dubious merit, the issue is destined to be a non-starter.

The gun control activists have lost focus on their reason for being. Gun control began as an idea for how to improve public safety. The inherent flaw of disarming entire locales rather than targeting criminals caused a backlash. Rather than recognize this obvious, glaring error and changing course, groupthink took hold of the movement. Now it is a fellowship of determined activists who seek a goal for its own sake, simply because their opponents are their political enemies. Will legislation aimed at banning ownership of firearms reduce crime? Probably not. But does anyone even care anymore? Probably not.

Last edited by Schmedlap; 04-27-2008 at 09:53 PM. Reason: formatting/spelling error
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Old 04-28-2008   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
(2) I don't think you can try to deal with the issue of gang violence without gun control.

Look at the parallel - we try to control weapons when we're doing stability ops in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else, don't we? At least to a degree. I agree that the problem isn't entirely guns, but it is at least part of the issue here. Good on Daley.
Swell idea, if only it worked...

Violent crime is worse than ever, say Pcs on the front line
By Melissa Kite, Deputy Political Editor
Last Updated: 2:15am BST 28/04/2008
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../nelect227.xml
Gun, knife and gang crime is the worst it has ever been, according to a survey of 1,200 front-line police officers.

Meanwhile, taking a page out of the Kavkaz.org (a Chechen War thing) playbook, Jeremiah Wright continues to sprinkle gasoline on embers in Chicago and elsewhere.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-w...eremiah-wright

Last edited by AdamG; 04-28-2008 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 04-28-2008   #10
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Kavkaz = Jeremiah Wright / Bill Moyers interview = Chicago gangs increasing crime?

Sorry, I'm too busy laughing my ass off.

Also, why does the average Chicago cop on the beat need an M4? Seriously, are the Gangster Disciples or the Latin Kings targeting Chicago cops in straight-up firefights? Or is Mayor Daley's second cousin now employed at Colt?
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Old 04-28-2008   #11
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Default Mayor Daley

I too live in the Chicago area, though no longer in the city proper.

Daley, who never travels anywhere without a swarm of armed police detective-bodyguards, has always been in favor of gun confiscation since his days as a State's Attorney for Cook County. Chicago bans possession of handguns unless they were registered prior to 1982 and the rest of Illinois has stronger gun control laws than 43 other states.

What Chicago does not have - and what you will not see due to Daley machine alliances with organized crime, including street gangs - is gang control.
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Old 04-28-2008   #12
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Sorry it took so long to respond to the beating here. I'll just say this. The Chicago Tribune did a bit a few years ago called "Homicide: Scourge of a City," and claimed that since Daley's election, violent crime had dropped in Chicago by 50%. Murders under 500 a year for the first time in 40 years. Heck, I'm 22 and I can remember when they were well over 900. I won't chalk it up to gun control - you all clearly know more than I do. But he's done a good job with crime in general, and while he's pushing his anti-gun agenda during this rash of shootings (apparently the CPD doesn't count, though - the M4s are a bit of overkill), he's also pushing a lot of positive initiatives; after-school programs, increased arts and sports funding for public schools, etc.

And yeah, Ron, you're right - I think an AK or equivalent is still allowed. Not quite "gun control" as we know it Thanks for the heads-up.

Regards,

Matt
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Old 04-28-2008   #13
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Murders under 500 a year for the first time in 40 years.
Sheesh, we have around 600 a year...

...for the entire country.
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Old 04-28-2008   #14
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Default Not wanting to start a fight but ....

I lived in Germany for six years with some of the most restrictive gun laws on Earth. I seem to remember very few gun homicides or gun armed criminal gangs roaming the streets engaging in shootouts. I also remember that every gun incident made national news. Most crimes were done at knifepoint, IIRC.

When we first moved back here to Leavenworth, my wife (who is German) turned on the 10PM local newscast. Five violent murders and a drive-by on that day alone. I was even taken aback, having not been used to that level of violence in Germany.

After being able to walk the streets of almost every major northern European city and town at 2 AM relatively safely, I really wonder how much our devotion to relatively unregulated gun posession is making us safer. I wouldn't have walked the streets of Richmond, VA (my hometown) or most mid-large sized US cities at 2AM.
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Old 04-28-2008   #15
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Sheesh, we have around 600 a year...

...for the entire country.
Even though handguns are virtually banned...

Did I not read a year or two ago that the RCMP had been accused IIRC of underreporting? No matter, let's say it's accurate. Just proves Canadians as a group are less violent than Americans. Good for you.
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Old 04-28-2008   #16
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Starting in the mid 1990s substantially less violent crime occurred as it literally dropped off the charts (the 1970s and 1980s were horrible). Some would say it was increased policing as Clinton claimed. Some would say that it was increased incarceration of criminals as Bush version 1 said. There are sociological possibilities found in Friedmans book touting increased abortion rates after Rowe v. Wade that decreased unwanted humans able to commit crime in the 90s.

In any regards my favorite is the advancement of "Make my Day" laws and increased civic mindedness and personal responsibility ethos.

The fact remains though that current crime is much less than it used to be. It is also a fact that locations with more restrictive gun control laws see more crime than areas with lax gun laws. There is correlation but not necessarily causation.

Chicago is not that bad off. Gary Indiana has about 1 murder for every 1000 people a year. A rate that equates to the homicide rate in Baghdad on a per capita basis. Gun laws are a red herring used by politicians to polarize the masses on both sides of the debate and frame the argument in a manner that makes it virtually unsolvable. If they wanted to fix the issue they would break up the gangs, destroy the nexus points in the organizations, and handle the situation like a counter insurgency. Unfortunately there is more money in maintaining the problem than fixing it.
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Old 04-28-2008   #17
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Hooray for Daley!

Murders in the city peaked first in 1974, with 970 murders when the city's population was over three million, resulting in a murder rate of around 29 per 100,000, and again in 1992, with 943 murders when the city had fewer than three million people, resulting in a murder rate of 34 per 100,000.

Following 1992, the murder count slowly decreased to 705 by 1999. In 2002, Chicago had fewer number of murders but a significantly higher murder rate than New York or Los Angeles, a situation which city police attributed to entrenched gang violence.

http://egov.cityofchicago.org/webpor...ORIAL/04AR.pdf

And for 2006? Still coming at Highest Urban Murder Rate in the US, numba one wit' a bullet!
In Chicago, homicides through the first 11 months of the year were up 3.3 percent compared with the same period in 2005, reversing a four-year decline. A police spokeswoman said gang violence has been a contributing factor. (qu'elle surprise. Who we gonna take da gunz away frum, again?)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n2304130.shtml

PS: Daley was elected mayor April 4, 1989, to complete the term of the late Harold Washington. He was re-elected in 1991, 1995 and 1999 by overwhelming margins.
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Old 05-23-2008   #18
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The Economist, 17 May 08: The Mystery of Violence
Quote:
....Chicago's muddled response frustrates David Kennedy of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. He notes that in the 1990s Boston brought together federal, state and local agencies, community groups, religious leaders and others (including himself) to fight violence. A main feature of the scheme was to locate gang members and tell them that help and services were available, but that violence would be met with severe penalties. If someone was killed, not only would prosecutors pursue the killer, but police would nail other gang members for smaller crimes. This would create an economic disincentive to kill—shooting a rival would badly disrupt gang business. The programme was launched in 1996. Youth murders plummeted. Long-term studies show a two-thirds drop.

Chicago has its own version of this strategy in six police districts, but it has been all but ignored in the current cacophony. A federal initiative called Project Safe Neighbourhoods (PSN) pays for the programme; the federal district attorney directs it. Chicago's PSN includes tough gun policing, federal prosecutions and—most important, or so researchers found—meetings with former felons to deter them from returning to crime. Over PSN's first two years, the districts it targeted saw a 37% drop in quarterly homicide rates. The challenge now is to help PSN expand. Chicago's leaders must use many tools to fight violence. One is right under their noses.
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Old 05-27-2008   #19
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I lived in Germany for six years with some of the most restrictive gun laws on Earth. I seem to remember very few gun homicides or gun armed criminal gangs roaming the streets engaging in shootouts. I also remember that every gun incident made national news. Most crimes were done at knifepoint, IIRC.

When we first moved back here to Leavenworth, my wife (who is German) turned on the 10PM local newscast. Five violent murders and a drive-by on that day alone. I was even taken aback, having not been used to that level of violence in Germany.

After being able to walk the streets of almost every major northern European city and town at 2 AM relatively safely, I really wonder how much our devotion to relatively unregulated gun posession is making us safer. I wouldn't have walked the streets of Richmond, VA (my hometown) or most mid-large sized US cities at 2AM.
Murder rates have little to do with guns, imo, and more to do with traditions of individual violence and "obedience to the law".

Give US police the power of the polizei, and a populace that will accept that power, and crime rates would plummet.

But if one wants safety, one could volunteer to be locked into a little cage.
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Old 05-27-2008   #20
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Default On M4s and Police Officers

Actually, M4s and other rifle caliber carbines are good police tools. They are more accurate than pistols and shotguns, and are handy, intuitive weapons to carry.

They don't over-penetrate any worse than other weapons, as well. Any round capable of killing a human being will over-penetrate, but in fact, pistol rounds over-penetrate worse than 5.56.

What people get hung up on is the way they "look". While an M94 Winchester carbine would "look nicer", while retaining roughly equivalent capabilities, the M4 carbine is more durable and reliable, and has spare part, training and accessory supply chains that are unsurpassed.
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