Green on Blue: causes and responses (merged thread)

[Dayuhan]

The place of honor (at the collective and individual levels) tends to be read- ily identified within cultures in general, Arab culture in particular (Dodd, 1973), and Arab dispute resolution traditions such as Sulha (Kressel, 1992; Gellman and Vuinovich, 2008). The Palestinian Human Rights Monitor (Aug. 2002, p. 2) writes this about the place of honor in Arab society: “The focus on the value of honor has great importance in Arab society.” Barakat (1993) places honor as one of the core values of Arab societies. He writes: “While values of honor, shame, and dignity, are adopted in this Arab vil- lage in Israel, nevertheless they are core values of contemporary social sys- tems in the Arab world, whether in an urban, village or Bedouin community” (p. 44).

The most vivid (and unfortunate) demonstration of the centrality of honor in Arab culture, indeed, at the core of the Arab family, which is the center of Arab society, can be seen in “honor killing.” These are tragic sit- uations where fathers, brothers, and other agnatic male kin murder their own female flesh and blood (daughter, sister, mother) to restore the honor- able status of the family when they perceive a female relative is violating it. There cannot be a more poignant demonstration of the centrality of honor than perceiving of a person willing—indeed, desiring—to kill his own daughter or mother or sister in order to restore perceived lost honor.

To what extent would observations on Arab culture apply in Afghanistan? Afghans aren't Arabs.

[TheCurmudgeon]

To what extent would observations on Arab culture apply in Afghanistan? Afghans aren't Arabs.

U.S. Powerless Against Honor Killings In Afghanistan

Woman, two children beheaded in Afghanistan 'honor killing

A recent study confirmed honor and respect as fundamental cultural values among Afghans, yet found subtle differences in interpretation of honor across groups and situations. Also, the conceptions of honor and respect as held among Afghans do not necessarily correspond with neighboring American concepts.

http://www.globalcognition.org/honor-among-afghans/

As I said before, to think that this is just an Afghan (or Arab) problem is to be small minded. It is common to any culture than holds honor in higher regard than other values.

[Fuchs]

It's ironical how such concepts of honour are usually being considered by Westerner in a context of violence.

Their purpose is actually to avoid violence to make living in a society more possible. Such concepts of honour and the likewise disrespected primitive justice systems such as known from Old Testament or Sharia are meant to maintain peace through deterrence. They also encourage the solution of conflicts through peaceful agreements including compensation for offences.

It's only the cases were the system fails and actually leads to the harsh consequences that create the bad reputation. It's like judging nuclear deterrence by eventual nuclear war. Not entirely unfair, but not exactly satisfactory either.


The really, really bad problems created by such primitive deterrence systems arise when cultures are being mixed. Cultures represent in large part a system of suppressing violent conflicts. To mix multiple cultures in a random way leads to an inferior suppressive effect and consequently to major problems. We can see the same with non-integrating, non-ethnic_ghetto ('China Town') immigrants from alien cultures in Europe.

The elaborate Western approach towards suppression of violence can only be imposed with enough resources (tricky in Afghanistan) and enough acceptance (tricky when the competing approach is based on religion or other ideology).

[TheCurmudgeon]

It's ironical how such concepts of honour are usually being considered by Westerner in a context of violence.

Their purpose is actually to avoid violence to make living in a society more possible. Such concepts of honour and the likewise disrespected primitive justice systems such as known from Old Testament or Sharia are meant to maintain peace through deterrence. They also encourage the solution of conflicts through peaceful agreements including compensation for offences.

Keen observation. These value systems that each culture have developed are a form of internal conflict resolution system. Like any other mores, norms, folkway, or law, they provide a predictability to day-to-day life and interactions with others. Where two systems are incompatible there will be conflict.

The trick form our perspective is to find a way to either work within their norms, folkways, and laws (which we have a very hard time doing) or to use them to resolve disputes before they turn deadly.

[Fuchs]

Isn't there a wrestling sport in Afghanistan?
Maybe wrestling could be introduced as some kind of duel for honour.
Whoever feels offended could allowed to try to humiliate his offender in a public fight.
In cases of actual offending actions, our superior officer could order our offender to lose the fight.

I know, a military bureaucracy wouldn't even come close to imagine to institute such a thing.

[TheCurmudgeon]

Isn't there a wrestling sport in Afghanistan?
Maybe wrestling could be introduced as some kind of duel for honour.
Whoever feels offended could allowed to try to humiliate his offender in a public fight.
In cases of actual offending actions, our superior officer could order our offender to lose the fight.

I know, a military bureaucracy wouldn't even come close to imagine to institute such a thing.

Disruptive thinking ... I like it.

I actually believe something along this line may be what is required.