Ill-Defined Problem Sets: A Discussion

[davidbfpo]

Mike F,

Thanks for those posts on the dilemmas and one way to move ahead.

Similar, less violent dilemma in Afghanistan the other day: http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08...ce-afghan-mob/

Faced by rioters, curiously with the ANP giving support, 82nd Airborne exit a village instead of conducting searches. One wonders what the patrol commander did when he got back to the FOB - with the eight ANP.

davidbfpo

[marct]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for sharing that story. As to your solution being politically incorrect, it probably is but, you know what? I would have done the same thing. Not to have done something on that order would have been taken as a sign of both weakness and lack of, hmmm, "constancy in service" (or to a goal) is probably the best phrase. There is a concept of what almost might be called "Fate" that runs through much of the region - as in one if fated to do X, Y and Z. This tends to move those so touched to act outside of the everyday cultural expectations and touch the "sacred". BTW, it's also what a lot of the AQ crowd have been drawing on. You tagged into that cultural narrative.

Back to your earlier question of what advice I'd give, really my previous post contained it. I can't really give more specific advice without actually being there and seeing the situation .

Cheers,

Marc

[MikeF]

As to your solution being politically incorrect, it probably is but, you know what? I would have done the same thing. Not to have done something on that order would have been taken as a sign of both weakness and lack of, hmmm, "constancy in service" (or to a goal) is probably the best phrase. There is a concept of what almost might be called "Fate" that runs through much of the region - as in one if fated to do X, Y and Z. This tends to move those so touched to act outside of the everyday cultural expectations and touch the "sacred". BTW, it's also what a lot of the AQ crowd have been drawing on. You tagged into that cultural narrative.

1. From the feedback that I've received from various junior leaders across the board, it seems that many are confusing being nice for being respectful. The damn phrase of "winning the hearts and minds" is being translated into never upset anyone. That is simply wrong, and I've seen too many soldiers get killed from those mistakes.

2. Never say never. We soldiers, not anthropologist. We use our understanding of cultural awareness to accomplish our mission not write an extensive ethonography on that nation's culture. Many times I learned through blunt trauma, but I did learn that you should never rule out any tools in your kitbag.

3. Relationship building. We operated in and around Zaganiyah for nearly nine months before this incident. I developed extensive relationships with both the Sunni and Shia tribes. I never took sides. Right before we entered Zaganiyah, I had the local IA commander arrested b/c he was commiting his own autrocities and feuling the local civil war (he was a shia from Kharnabhat, an adjacent town). I tried my best to stay neutral and only take action when necessary. Plus, I rarely raised my voice. So, when the appropriate time came to do so and show anger and disgust, it was respected.

4. In reality, at least in Diyala Province, yelling is the first part of any negotiation. It usually works like this...

1/3- Offended parties yell at each other in heated, exaggerated shows of emotion.
1/3- Arbitrator (Typically sheik or imam) calms everyone down and the discuss a reasonable solution
1/3 - Hugs, Man kisses, chai, and cigarettes. Everyone celebrates.

It is an odd way to do business, but it works for them.

v/r

Mike

[marct]

Hi Mike,

1. From the feedback that I've received from various junior leaders across the board, it seems that many are confusing being nice for being respectful. The damn phrase of "winning the hearts and minds" is being translated into never upset anyone. That is simply wrong, and I've seen too many soldiers get killed from those mistakes.

I've seen grad students sent to mental institutions trying to "never upset anyone" and worrying about the "inherent power imbalance between the ethnographer and the informant" .

2. Never say never. We soldiers, not anthropologist. We use our understanding of cultural awareness to accomplish our mission not write an extensive ethonography on that nation's culture. Many times I learned through blunt trauma, but I did learn that you should never rule out any tools in your kitbag.

Agreed and, BTW, that holds for doing good ethnographies as well. Even though our (Anthropologists) mission is to write ethnographies, never say never is a damn good motto for us, too, and too few use it .

3. Relationship building. We operated in and around Zaganiyah for nearly nine months before this incident. I developed extensive relationships with both the Sunni and Shia tribes. I never took sides. Right before we entered Zaganiyah, I had the local IA commander arrested b/c he was commiting his own autrocities and feuling the local civil war (he was a shia from Kharnabhat, an adjacent town). I tried my best to stay neutral and only take action when necessary. Plus, I rarely raised my voice. So, when the appropriate time came to do so and show anger and disgust, it was respected.

Yup. I've seen wanna-be ethnographers (some with tenure) go into areas and tell the locals what they "should" be doing. Thankfully, I've never had to work under any of these twits, but they are there. Most cultures recognize everything that we would call a "relationship" (there actually aren't that many different forms), even though they rate them differently. Sounds like you tagged into one that they recognized pretty well.

4. In reality, at least in Diyala Province, yelling is the first part of any negotiation. It usually works like this...

1/3- Offended parties yell at each other in heated, exaggerated shows of emotion.
1/3- Arbitrator (Typically sheik or imam) calms everyone down and the discuss a reasonable solution
1/3 - Hugs, Man kisses, chai, and cigarettes. Everyone celebrates.

Sounds like my wife's version of conflict resolution ! So, the key, then, lies in the arbitrator position. It sounds like you put yourself in the place of the arbitrator in a way they weren't expecting.

Cheers,

Marc

[MikeF]

I've seen grad students sent to mental institutions trying to "never upset anyone" and worrying about the "inherent power imbalance between the ethnographer and the informant" .

Agreed and, BTW, that holds for doing good ethnographies as well. Even though our (Anthropologists) mission is to write ethnographies, never say never is a damn good motto for us, too, and too few use it

Yup. I've seen wanna-be ethnographers (some with tenure) go into areas and tell the locals what they "should" be doing. Thankfully, I've never had to work under any of these twits, but they are there. Most cultures recognize everything that we would call a "relationship" (there actually aren't that many different forms), even though they rate them differently. Sounds like you tagged into one that they recognized pretty well.

Hi Marc,

In grad school, I was fascinated by the subject of anthropology, but I always thought it a bit presumptious that one could believe that they could penetrate a society without making waves.

It reminds me of all the times that we had embedded reporters within our unit. Guys would put on all their tricked out "kits" around the photographers and pose hoping to get the "GI Joe" photo-shot. I imagine that it is the same for villagers when an anthropologist comes to town. Some will posture, others will exaggerate....In the end, the visitor becomes a bit of amusement outside their normal day to day life.

Sounds like my wife's version of conflict resolution ! So, the key, then, lies in the arbitrator position. It sounds like you put yourself in the place of the arbitrator in a way they weren't expecting.

Good analogy. I only wish that dealing with wives was as simple as dealing with tribal sheiks. At least the locals are from earth. Women are from Venus

Best,

Mike

[Ron Humphrey]

Good analogy. I only wish that dealing with wives was as simple as dealing with tribal sheiks. At least the locals are from earth. Women are from Venus

Best,

Mike

Good thing they are too
If we could figure them out then we have to go back to arguing with neighbors to keep from getting bored.

[marct]

Hi Mike,

In grad school, I was fascinated by the subject of anthropology, but I always thought it a bit presumptious that one could believe that they could penetrate a society without making waves.

Any Anthropologist who says that is lying through his/her teeth ! Of course we're going to make wave - the question is are they big ones or small ones? Personally, I'm in favour of really, really small ones. Basically, the best tactic once you are in the field that I've found is find an analog and learn to act in a very roughly similar manner. The people we're studying may or may not know what we do (they should, but that's another story...), but as long as they have a pretty good idea of why we are there, how we are going to operate and what we are going to do in return for the information we get, I'm pretty cool with it.

We do, if we are doing a lot of fieldwork with the same group over a long time, end up more as members (often absent) of that community - in effect, we go more native than most others, but that keeps all of us sane.

It reminds me of all the times that we had embedded reporters within our unit. Guys would put on all their tricked out "kits" around the photographers and pose hoping to get the "GI Joe" photo-shot. I imagine that it is the same for villagers when an anthropologist comes to town. Some will posture, others will exaggerate....In the end, the visitor becomes a bit of amusement outside their normal day to day life.

I've seen that when some of the sociologists I've run across try to do ethnographic fieldwork. Probably the best analog would be a DoS dweeb who flies in for a couple of two day staged tours and then "knows all about the situation". Pathetic! I actually ahd one guy tell me he could get a complete social structural model of organizations by spending no more than 15 hours actually in them !

Good analogy. I only wish that dealing with wives was as simple as dealing with tribal sheiks. At least the locals are from earth. Women are from Venus

Having said that, I won't repeat what my wife said when she found out !

Cheers,

Marc

[MikeF]

Hi Marc,

Having said that, I won't repeat what my wife said when she found out !
Marc

Time to buy flowers, jewelry, chocolate, and find a baby-sitter so you can take her out this weekend.

Back to small wars stuff...

One form of infiltration that may even surpass the ability to speak the language is mannerisms..

If you can learn to sit the way locals sit, hold your cigarette the way the locals do it, etc...In essence, learn to mimick your counterparts, then everyone feels comfortable. Form is often as important as function. Fortunately, this revelation works just as well in visiting local bars in new cities.

Back to your dillema...

Just blame all your issues on the SWJ Council-we're a bad influence. Tell your wife that you have to deal with us for your job, we're a bunch of unrefined thugs, and you just wish that you could spend every moment with her Good luck with that one.


v/r

Mike

[Dayuhan]

Any Anthropologist who says that is lying through his/her teeth ! Of course we're going to make wave - the question is are they big ones or small ones? Personally, I'm in favour of really, really small ones. Basically, the best tactic once you are in the field that I've found is find an analog and learn to act in a very roughly similar manner. The people we're studying may or may not know what we do (they should, but that's another story...), but as long as they have a pretty good idea of why we are there, how we are going to operate and what we are going to do in return for the information we get, I'm pretty cool with it.

We do, if we are doing a lot of fieldwork with the same group over a long time, end up more as members (often absent) of that community - in effect, we go more native than most others, but that keeps all of us sane.

We could probably trade some amusing stories on this score. I live in an indigenous community that is very heavily studied; we always seem to have anthropologists and other social scientists in residence or passing through. In many cases one wonders why they come, as they seem to know what they will conclude before they even arrive! The community, of course, has its own ways of coping with being studied, and in many cases there are some truly hilarious comparative discussions of the methods, personalities, and assumptions of various researchers... is there a field of study in which those studied study those who study them?

[Greyhawk]

Mike F,

Thanks for those posts on the dilemmas and one way to move ahead.

Similar, less violent dilemma in Afghanistan the other day: http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08...ce-afghan-mob/

Faced by rioters, curiously with the ANP giving support, 82nd Airborne exit a village instead of conducting searches. One wonders what the patrol commander did when he got back to the FOB - with the eight ANP.

davidbfpo

I submit the 'on the bright side' explanation that "As ugly as it was, we were able to confirm there is anti-coalition sentiment in Tokchi'' as one of the great military quotes of all time.

Less off-topic, MikeF, you are going to ultimately write a book, right?

[Kiwigrunt]

...MikeF, you are going to ultimately write a book, right?

I'd buy it.

[MikeF]

Less off-topic, MikeF, you are going to ultimately write a book, right?

Eventually, I'd like to write a book, but it'll probably take several years. I'm going to allow some more time and space to allow me to get it right. For now, I'll publish an occasional paper on SWJ and comment on threads to try and provide some assistance to the younger guys out actually doing the fighting.

Additionally, I send most of my writings to my former O's and NCO's. We were very close (Band of Brothers like), and they fact check my work to make sure I get the details and sequence of events correct. Plus, they keep reminded me of how awesome they were and want their story told. In fact, that will probably be the best part of the story- the people involved to include our final IA Company.

I'd buy it.

Thanks KiwiGrunt.

Back to this thread, I'm still hoping some of the other military guys will comment on how they have tackled these problems in the past.

v/r

Mike