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  1. #1
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default We'll likely never know -- sorta immaterial in any event...

    Quote Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
    ...your're mis-reading the facts of what we did on that deployment in support of your points.
    Not the facts of what you did, that's a matter of record and you acknowledge the mission. We only differ on the matter of how and why you got the mission.
    The change in mission, that you find "particularly troublesome" changed because of the surge...
    Based on things told me at the time by several people not related, your points contributed to the change but were not the determinant.
    We politicked for the special mission (if its the one I'm thinking of), but were never assigned it.
    Those folks also disagree on that first point but do agree on the second. The original was requested by one GO and was disapproved of, verbally, by another leading to a staff decision. There is no question that the original mission was ever agreed to or assigned by CentCom and MNF-I.

    No matter, really, water under the bridge. Without being directly involved, we'll never know the totality of the rationales -- if any...

    The basic point -- and the 'surge' effort and chaos clearly proves it -- is that the overall Iraq mission was not well conducted and, specifically, that the assignment of experienced infantry BCTs to route security while assigning Armor and FA Bns re-roled duty as Infantry is, ummm, questionable...

    To go to such extremes in an existential war is understandable. To do it in a war of choice is folly.

  2. #2
    Council Member TAH's Avatar
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    Default Add or Swap

    So, MRAPs and MSR security/convoy escort seem to be OK.

    If we need/want CSS units to self-defend, we need to ensure they are: organized, equipped, manned and trained to do so.

    Light/Medium Trcuk, Medium Truck and PLS Companies have 50-60 trucks each. HET Companies have 96.

    So how many MRAP escorts should be organic to each company?

    I'm thinking 1 MRAP per 8-10 mission trucks. If we add a unit of 8-10 MRAPs we also add 25-30 PAX to each unit.

    If we swap mission trucks for MRAPs we would lose close to 20% of the lift capabiity and would still need to add 8-10 PAX as mission trucks will normally only have a 2-man crew and MRAPs shouild probably have at least 3, just like the existing MP gun trucks.

  3. #3
    Council Member Pete's Avatar
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    I remember in the mid-1980s when the Military Intelligence branch suggested they should be in charge of rear area security in divisions and to do so they should have an assigned Infantry company so they could play Army just like the big kids.

  4. #4
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Subtract

    I don't think MRAPs are good for much of anything. The MPs are supposed to have the convoy escort / route security mission in the rear -- so let them do that with their M 1117s. If route clearance is necessary, that's an Engineer job with specialist vehicles, not MRAPs. One can only add so much armor, the best soution to IEDs and mines is avoidance or elimination.

    A better question is how do we eliminate the need for preferably all, hopefully most but at least some of those manpower intensive convoys and escorts...

    Convoys are big slow moving targets and have been for over 5,000 years. Add the fact that nowadays, there really is no rear area and you're confronted with the fact we need to look at alternatives. We discovered those facts in Viet Nam, 45+ years ago -- and did nothing...

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    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    The elimination is simple. Use dispersed truck movement and secure the area or route.

  6. #6
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    From Tom Ricks:

    I remember how I used to listen to various NATO officials complain about how member nations were not sending enough helicopters to Afghanistan. Now it appears that the chickens have come home to roost: The Canadian media is reporting that the Canadian Ministry of Defence has quietly leased a bunch of Russian helicopters to use in southern Afghanistan.
    Again, I've been hearing about a general shortage of helo's in Afghanistan for a few years now. Just sayin.
    Supporting "time-limited, scope limited military actions" for 20 years.

  7. #7
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    Thumbs up MRAPs, armour, and tactical flexibility

    Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere and I missed it, but I'm sure many will be nodding in agreement (not necessary on the M1 issue, but rather on the transportation/tactical flexibility/risk aversion issue):

    Tanks, But No Tanks
    Why heavy armor won't save Afghanistan.
    Foreign Policy Magazine
    BY MICHAEL WALTZ | NOVEMBER 24, 2010

    To be clear, fault does not lie with the MRAP, MATV, or any other armored vehicle. It lies with how commanders are using the vehicles due to their aversion to risk and their attempts to minimize coalition injuries at the expense of the broader counterinsurgency mission. The vehicles' size would not be a hindrance to that mission if junior coalition commanders were also authorized to use other smaller vehicles to access the difficult areas of Afghanistan. For example, if a unit needed to access a village that was only accessible by pickup truck or Humvee, then that is what they would use.

    This, however, was not the case during my most recent tour in southeastern Afghanistan, which ended in February of this year. What I found is that commanders were mandating the use of MRAPs only. If a unit did not have MRAPs or some other type of armored vehicle, then troopers were not allowed to leave the base at all.

    This sounds like a minor tactical issue, but its consequences are having strategic effects on how we conduct the war and our ability to access the population. As one frustrated company commander told me after the directive, "If an MRAP can't get there, we don't go there. I need the flexibility to decide what type of vehicle to use."

    Another commander, looking up at the hills and mountains surrounding his camp, lamented that he was now unable to access more than 70 percent of his assigned districts. "My men can only walk so far with their body armor on," he said as we chatted near the line of Humvees he could no longer use. To make matters worse, there was an additional requirement of a minimum of four vehicles in order to leave the wire even when a unit didn't have enough working MRAPs to meet the requirement.

    This seemingly cautious approach not only contradicts the principles behind our counterinsurgency strategy, but it is actually reckless: It will end up causing more casualties in the long run than it prevents in the short run. Using only these behemoth vehicles prevents U.S. troops from accessing large portions of the populace and allows insurgent IED cells to flourish in areas relatively easy to reach by other means. We cannot protect a populace we do not allow ourselves to access.

    ...

    It may be counterintuitive, but we actually need less armor, and we need to be more flexible and unpredictable. Instead of dictating that no unit can leave its base unless in an MRAP or MATV, we must allow them to use Humvees, all-terrain vehicles, snowmobiles, and ruggedized pickup trucks when appropriate. Knowing their movements are being watched at all times, units need to use deception, such as varying the time of day and night they move, their routes of travel, and the types of vehicles in which they conduct missions, to keep the insurgents constantly guessing. Insurgents cannot possibly booby-trap and watch every road, trail, and wadi in Afghanistan but they can and do hammer us on the few roads that will support armored vehicles.

    This is a very unconventional war being waged in the most difficult terrain possible, and we are responding very conventionally. Instead of allowing such ingenuity and its associated risk, the coalition's default response has been to add more armor and widgets to ever larger vehicles that are the very antithesis of basic counterinsurgency operations.

    ...
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  8. #8
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    Default Inability to use in mountains does not preclude use in Helmand province

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Brynen View Post
    Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere and I missed it, but I'm sure many will be nodding in agreement (not necessary on the M1 issue, but rather on the transportation/tactical flexibility/risk aversion issue):

    Tanks, But No Tanks
    Why heavy armor won't save Afghanistan.
    Foreign Policy Magazine
    BY MICHAEL WALTZ | NOVEMBER 24, 2010
    But isn't the inability to use tanks/M-ATV in mountainous terrain a separate issue from use on flatter terrain? For instance, read recently that we are constructing "military roads" using engineer equipment and line charges that are well removed from the population. That way we do not encourage the Taliban to use IEDs on roads the public uses. With single tanks and a squad of infantry positioned every few kilometers along these "military roads," if properly positioned, tanks and small UAS could preclude IED-planting on the "road" and overwatch of population centers a km or so away where dismounts would move daily.

    Tanks with rollers could also create temporary routes each day leading M-ATV/Strykers and dismounts toward populated areas where the M-ATV/Strykers would provide overwatch. Fuel trucks would use the military roads to resupply the tanks/M-ATV/Strykers.

    Can also picture an optional-two-man ATV with tires spread far enough apart that a well-armored V-shaped tandem-seat (like Apache) PAX capsule would survive when the wheels triggered the pressure plate. Put airbags inside the interior to cushion the troops when the armored capsule goes airborne. Might even use a deploying parachute if the capsule sensed sudden acceleration. We spend millions putting ejection seats in fighters with low probability of use. We could similarly protect a limited number of two-man OP ATVs.
    Last edited by Cole; 11-25-2010 at 10:06 PM. Reason: Added Strykers and removed Bradley in second paragraph.

  9. #9
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    From the quoted article:
    To be clear, fault does not lie with the MRAP, MATV, or any other armored vehicle. It lies with how commanders are using the vehicles due to their aversion to risk and their attempts to minimize coalition injuries at the expense of the broader counterinsurgency mission. The vehicles' size would not be a hindrance to that mission if junior coalition commanders were also authorized to use other smaller vehicles to access the difficult areas of Afghanistan. For example, if a unit needed to access a village that was only accessible by pickup truck or Humvee, then that is what they would use.
    Not sure about this.

    Given the number and (blast) strength of vehicle IEDs in Afghanistan I would suggest that if troops need to travel or deploy by vehicle they need to use MRAPs... and then only the latest upgraded versions. As IEDs account for the majority of KIA and a larger number of really severe mutilation injuries it would be criminally negligent for a commander to send troops out in a non MRAP vehicle unless for a very specific once-off purpose.

    It has been said that the Northern Ireland IED threat was largely defeated through the intelligent use of helicopters and the judicious use of vehicles. If the US does not know this then the Brits obviously do and they should have known better themselves in Afghanistan. There is no excuse for this.

    I wait with baited breath to hear how sending troops down mined roads in unprotected vehicles will contribute to the "counterinsurgency mission".

    Risk aversion is a problem in Afghanistan, I agree, but not in this case.

  10. #10
    Council Member 82redleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    The basic point -- and the 'surge' effort and chaos clearly proves it -- is that the overall Iraq mission was not well conducted and, specifically, that the assignment of experienced infantry BCTs to route security while assigning Armor and FA Bns re-roled duty as Infantry is, ummm, questionable...

    To go to such extremes in an existential war is understandable. To do it in a war of choice is folly.
    100% agree.

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