The US & others working with Pakistan

**Bob's World** · 04-29-2012

Carl,

If you recall, Afghanistan was not a problem for the US under the Taliban and their Pakistani allies. Yes, AQ had sanctuary there, and that was a problem for us, but only because totally ignored it until they launched the attacks of 9/11 (which I doubt their host knew much about), and until we were forced to act quickly to figure out how to deal with reprisals on a non-state actor. We ignored the Saudi State that most of the attackers and leaders of AQ hailed from, and the Egyptian state; and instead made loose connections to bring our wrath down upon the Afghan and Iraqi states. I understand why we attacked Afghanistan, but believe we could have achieved at least equal effects against AQ without inflaming the region by expanding our fight to the Taliban.

I know if you leased a shed in your backyard to some guy who then went out and robbed a bank, you would not expect the police to come in and chase that guy off your property, and then take out their anger on you, throwing you in jail and your family out into the street, and then putting some homeless people from the area into your home in your stead. That is what we did in Afghanistan.

I know you don't like Pakistan. I on the other hand don't worry about if I "like" or "dislike" Pakistan, I simply assess that they acted rationally and reasonably in seeking to exert influence over Afghanistan through the shared Pashtun populace prior to 9/11; and that they acted rationally and reasonably in both agreeing to help the US in exchange for massive aid, while at the same time continuing to work covertly to do what they had always done as it was still the smartest way to address their interests as they reasonably defined them.

I cannot say that the US also action rationally or reasonably. I cannot say that the US had powerful interests to do what we did and are doing. I think we made mistakes in the heat of the moment and don't know how to get back on track. Pakistan plays a dangerous game with the US, but to be fair, it is not a game they asked to play, it is a game we forced them to play.

**Ken White** · 04-29-2012

Originally Posted by Bob's World

...don't worry about if I "like" or "dislike" Pakistan, I simply assess that they acted rationally and reasonably in seeking to exert influence over Afghanistan...

...Pakistan plays a dangerous game with the US, but to be fair, it is not a game they asked to play, it is a game we forced them to play. (emphasis added / kw)

Act in haste, repent at leisure as the Actress said to the Bishop.

Perhaps the Actress was / is simply better at the game than the Bishop...

Consider also that the Actress can be strongly independent and amoral; the Bishop has to engage in many compromises to maintain his appearance of sanctity if not sanity and to satisfy his synod and all those parishioners with different ideas...

**carl** · 04-30-2012

Originally Posted by Bob's World

Carl,

If you recall, Afghanistan was not a problem for the US under the Taliban and their Pakistani allies. Yes, AQ had sanctuary there, and that was a problem for us, but only because totally ignored it until they launched the attacks of 9/11 (which I doubt their host knew much about), and until we were forced to act quickly to figure out how to deal with reprisals on a non-state actor. We ignored the Saudi State that most of the attackers and leaders of AQ hailed from, and the Egyptian state; and instead made loose connections to bring our wrath down upon the Afghan and Iraqi states. I understand why we attacked Afghanistan, but believe we could have achieved at least equal effects against AQ without inflaming the region by expanding our fight to the Taliban.

I do recall, but not what you recall (remember that scene in The Princess Bride where Inigo said to Vizini...). I recall the Embassy bombings in Africa and that guy who got caught at the border with the explosives and perhaps the U.S.S. Cole. I recall that was a problem for the US because AQ had sanctuary in Afghanistan and we couldn't get at them. I also recall that we tried with cruise missiles and AQ was a focus of the various intel groups and that Mr. Clinton regretted that he couldn't get Osama. That doesn't seem like totally ignoring to me but as Inigo said to Vizini...

AQ's host may not have known much about 9-11 beforehand but if they knew anything at all about it, they didn't tell us thereby making themselves complicit in the mass murder of Americans.

We expanded our fight to include the Taliban because after being asked politely, they didn't give up AQ. They could have avoided inflaming the region by giving up a mass murderer but they chose not to, with some encouragement by the ISI.

Originally Posted by Bob's World

I know if you leased a shed in your backyard to some guy who then went out and robbed a bank, you would not expect the police to come in and chase that guy off your property, and then take out their anger on you, throwing you in jail and your family out into the street, and then putting some homeless people from the area into your home in your stead. That is what we did in Afghanistan.

I prefer to avoid the strained analogies. The actual situation was simple and clear enough. AQ was hosted by the Taliban. AQ killed thousands of Americans. We asked Taliban to give up AQ. They refused. We went after them both.

Originally Posted by Bob's World

I know you don't like Pakistan. I on the other hand don't worry about if I "like" or "dislike" Pakistan,...

Well actually, you don't know I don't like Pakistan. I on the other hand do know. I asked myself that question and I believe I received an honest answer. I like Pakistan just fine. How can you not like a country that produces people like the Karachi cop and ambulance driver profiled in a video highlighted on this site some time back, or that produces hyper-brave men like the Pakistani journalist beaten to death by the ISI last year.

I do dislike, to put it mildly, the Pak Army/ISI; mainly the officer corps though, especially the high guys. The poor troops get betrayed by their officers probably more often than we do. I dislike the Pak Army/ISI as an institution because they kill Americans and they put a country composed of people like the cop, ambulance driver and journalist I mentioned at grave risk solely to preserve the privileges and power of the Pak Army/ISI.

Originally Posted by Bob's World

...I simply assess that they acted rationally and reasonably in seeking to exert influence over Afghanistan through the shared Pashtun populace prior to 9/11; and that they acted rationally and reasonably in both agreeing to help the US in exchange for massive aid, while at the same time continuing to work covertly to do what they had always done as it was still the smartest way to address their interests as they reasonably defined them.

I cannot say that the US also action rationally or reasonably. I cannot say that the US had powerful interests to do what we did and are doing. I think we made mistakes in the heat of the moment and don't know how to get back on track. Pakistan plays a dangerous game with the US, but to be fair, it is not a game they asked to play, it is a game we forced them to play.

So the Pak Army/ISI is acting rationally and reasonably by pursuing a course of action that puts their country at grave risk. The US on the other hand hasn't been acting rationally and reasonably by reacting as we did to the attack on 9-11. Like I said about Inigo and Vizini...

I will concede however that we have screwed up royally in Afghanistan in the last 10 years. The biggest mistake being of course that we refuse to recognize the Pak Army/ISI as being the enemy and treating them accordingly.

**Ray** · 04-30-2012

There is nothing wrong with Pakistan.

Except for the fact that they want to hunt with the hounds and run with the hares at the same time!

In the bargain, they are themselves confusing themselves as to what they really want.

Good chaps otherwise!

**davidbfpo** · 04-30-2012

Carl's comment above included:

Well actually, you don't know I don't like Pakistan. I on the other hand do know. I asked myself that question and I believe I received an honest answer. I like Pakistan just fine. How can you not like a country that produces people like the Karachi cop and ambulance driver profiled in a video highlighted on this site some time back, or that produces hyper-brave men like the Pakistani journalist beaten to death by the ISI last year.

I posted this last year on the 'Pakistani Politics' thread, but do not have the journalist's details to hand.

Peter Oborne, one of the UK's best reporters IMHO, has been in Karachi, Pakistan's commercial capital and a huge city beset with problems:

In the last 60 years the population of Karachi has risen from 300,000 to nearly 20 million. The pressure for homes, water and food - compounded by high levels of unemployment - has lead to furious conflict between the rival ethnic groups, with around 1300 people killed in gangland violence last year.
His report is based on following an ambulance driver, employed by a charity and a shorter period with a police inspector, who states at least 100 of his officers have been killed in the past year.

The film clip on:http://www.channel4.com/programmes/u...ld/4od#3180510

The written summary is on: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/u...2011/episode-4

The links do work in the USA and a SWC viewer responded:

They should stop making cop shows about Americans and make cops shows about Karachi cops. That was something.

**carl** · 04-30-2012

The journalist's name was Saleem Shahzad.

http://warincontext.org/2011/07/04/u...ni-journalist/

**VCheng** · 04-30-2012

Interesting development, to say the least, perhaps showing that things might not have been so upright with the assailant's family as were made out to be:

from: http://dawn.com/2012/04/30/widow-mot...victim-killed/

LAHORE: The widow of a Pakistani man shot dead by a CIA contractor last year in an incident that sparked a major crisis in American-Pakistani relations, was killed by her father on Monday for refusing to remarry, police said.

Zahra Faizan, 24, and her 50-year-old mother, Nabeela Shehzad, were allegedly shot dead by Mohammad Shehzad in Lahore after a family quarrel.

................

Zahra’s first husband, Mohammad Faizan, was one of two Pakistanis shot dead by CIA contractor Raymond Davis in Lahore in January 2011....................