Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 183

Thread: Mumbai Attacks and their impact

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
    Posts
    3,947

    Default Mumbai Attacks and their impact

    Moderator's Note: I have changed the title (October 2010) to reflect the posts on the impact of the attacks. Just merged four smaller threads into this (February 2013), but have left alone a thread on Social Media (Twitter) and the Mumbai attacks (ends)


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7751360.stm

    Probably worthy of our collective attentions
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 04-15-2013 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Add Mod's note and update
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  2. #2
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,169

    Default Way too early to assess

    The dust hasn't settled and it is hard to assess anything until the media gets past their sensationalism phase, but it may be helpful to put the attack in perspective.

    http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countr...dia/index.html

    From a 2007 Assessment

    2,765 people died in terrorism-related violence in India during year 2006. A review of the data indicates that nearly 41 per cent of all such fatalities occurred in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) alone as a result of the Pakistan-backed separatist proxy war in that State. 27 per cent resulted from Left Wing Extremism (Maoism/Naxalism) across parts of 14 States, prominently including Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra, Orissa, West Bengal, Uttar Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar and Karnataka. 23 per cent of the total fatalities in 2006 occurred in the multiple insurgencies of India’s Northeast.

    By comparison, year 2005 witnessed a total of 3,236 fatalities in terrorism-related incidents across the country. The fatality index, consequently, registered a definite decrease in year 2006.
    It would be interesting to see what the numbers were in 2007 and 2008 to date, although that metric in itself means very little. India is challenged by multiple insurgencies, terrorist groups and worrisome neighbors, yet they a do a remarkable job of maintaining relative stability in a country that is ripe for ethnic conflict. I suspect there is a lot we can learn from India and how they manage these complex problems, and hopefully we'll see more posted over the coming weeks on how they managed security challenges historically.

    Reference today's attacks, we have seen this type of attack before in the airports of Tel Aviv, Rome and Vienna in the 70s and 80s where the terrorists used small arms and grenades, but they were not nearly as deadly as this Mumbai attack. This was clearly a sosphisticated attack on a number of levels, and the implications of foreign involvement is what is most worrying. http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/detail...1=11/27/2008#1

    The terrorists reportedly came in by sea from Karachi in Pakistan. A boat laden with explosives was recovered later at night off the Gateway of India.

    General Officer Commanding of Maharashtra, Goa and Gujarat, said. Speaking to NDTV, Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister R. R. Patil said, "There is no plan for talks with the terrorists." Claiming to have some "vital leads", he expressed confidence of a breakthrough soon. Intelligence sources said that a foreign hand is fully evident in these attacks. They have also reportedly arrested a Pakistan national from Chowpatty area in the city. Police chief A. N. Roy said, "There is no indication so far of the identity of the terrorists." He said that the terrorists were highly armed, level of weapons and training suggest that they are not locals.
    Perhaps the intended objective is bigger than just India, and actually aimed at regional instability to counter the positive diplomacy between India and Pakistan, which in turn will lead to more effective operations in the FATA. First reports are generally wrong, but if the attackers did come from Pakistan, this would be an opportunity for Pakistan to show the world that it is serious about fighting terrorists]ism within its in borders by cooperating and assisting its neighbors (in this case India) in the fight against this common threat. That would be a major regional paradigm shift in favor of the counter terrorist coalition.

    How probable is it that we'll this type of regional paradigm shift? Only time will tell, but this type of attack should further demonstrate to the populations that the terrorists are trying to influence how completely morally bankrupt the terrorists and their objectives are.

    Again, looking past the hype, there was even a more deadly attack in Mumbai two years ago, yet Mumbai remains a striving city.

    http://counterterrorismblog.org/

    The incidents took place one day after the reported arrest of Lashkar -e-Toiba linked Raheel Sheikh by the Interpol in London. Raheel is one of the alleged masterminds of the conspiracy and was involved in the funding of the July 11, 2006, Mumbai serial train blasts that killed nearly 200 commuters and wounded over 500 people on that fateful day.
    It is highly improbable (if not impossible) that an attack was mounted in one days time in response to this arrest. The good news is that they captured the prick.

  3. #3
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,099

    Default

    Wired, 26 Nov 08: Mumbai Attack Aftermath Detailed, Tweet by Tweet
    First-hand accounts of the deadly Mumbai attacks are pouring in on Twitter, Flickr, and other social media......

    ......The local bloggers at Metblogs Mumbai have new updates every couple of minutes. So do the folks at GroundReport. Dozens of videos have been uploaded to YouTube. But the most remarkable citizen journalism may be coming from "Vinu," who is posting a stream of harrowing post-attack pictures to Flickr.

  4. #4
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    1,602

    Default

    Live IBN reports are streamed here (I wish CNN would run them directly, instead of talking over the Indian video and commentary).

  5. #5
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,366

    Default

    The incidents took place one day after the reported arrest of Lashkar -e-Toiba linked Raheel Sheikh by the Interpol in London. Raheel is one of the alleged masterminds of the conspiracy and was involved in the funding of the July 11, 2006, Mumbai serial train blasts that killed nearly 200 commuters and wounded over 500 people on that fateful day.

    The good news is that they captured the prick.


    Sorry Bill, Raheel Sheikh has not been detained in London or London Heathrow or Birmingham airport; as reported by the Indian press and websites after a comment in Mumbai by a senior police officer: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/CB...-arrest/390993
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 11-27-2008 at 10:45 PM. Reason: Failure to move quote and add title. Then link.

  6. #6
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,169

    Default Raining on my parade

    David,

    Thanks for the update, so we scratch the good news for the time being. Hopefully you'll have some better news in the coming days First reports are generally wrong, or at least not entirely accurate.

  7. #7
    Council Member jkm_101_fso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kabul
    Posts
    325

    Default NYPD LL from Mumbai

    Good on them for learning from Mumbai attack:

    NYPD Eyes Disrupting Cell Phones in Event of Terrorist Attack

    The New York Police Department is training for new threats in the wake of the Mumbai terror attacks, Commissioner Raymond Kelly is set to tell a Senate committee Thursday.

    By Judith Miller
    FOXNews.com
    Thursday, January 08, 2009

    The New York Police Department is looking for ways to disrupt cell phone calls and other forms of electronic communication among terrorists in the event of another terror attack in New York, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly says.
    The need to disrupt communications is one of several conclusions that the NYPD has drawn from studying the November attack in Mumbai, India, a three-day rampage by machine gun and grenade-wielding Islamic militants in which at least 165 people were killed and 304 were wounded.
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...rorist-attack/

    It's not clear from his testimony whether the NYPD has the means to disrupt electronic communications for a small group of terrorists without shutting down cell phone service to a large part of Manhattan.
    Would obviously be a major roadblock, and quite unpopular. May cause more chaos, in the event a Mumbai-like scenario took place.

    The NYPD has also been at odds with the Justice Department over its attempt to get the federal government to loosen up a law governing electronic surveillance. Under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, warrants must be obtained to begin electronic monitoring of terror suspects, and the requests go through a multi-layered vetting process by the FBI and the Justice Department. Kelly is asking for these agencies to expedite NYPD's requests to be able to combat fast-moving terror situations.
    This will certainly be the biggest obstacle.
    Sir, what the hell are we doing?

  8. #8
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Belly of the beast
    Posts
    2,112

    Default

    Disrupting cell phone systems is a bad idea.

    1) Major medical devices in first responder vehicles use the cell network for telemetry.
    2) Many fire suppression and burglar systems use the cell network for telemetry and control.
    3) Many home medical devices use the cell network for telemetry and warning.
    4) The interdiction or wide spread disruption of the cell network could have wide and varied secondary and tertiary effects.
    5) Under FCC rules it is currently absolutely illegal to do even by law enforcement (um because of all those other spectrum users).

    Finally without going broad spectrum high power it is really hard to do unless you have a deep penetration into the cell network already. Nobody I know is going to admit that even if it is pretty much true with the extensions to CALEA.
    Sam Liles
    Selil Blog
    Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
    The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
    All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.

  9. #9
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    861

    Default Terror in Mumbai, on HBO

    On HBO tomorrow night at 8 pm (thursday 8 pm)

    http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/terrorinmumbai/
    >

    HBO DOCUMENTARIES WEBSITE > HBO DOCUMENTARIES CLIPS

    Rated TV14: ADULT LANGUAGE, VIOLENCE, ADULT CONTENT

    Running Time: 64 minutes

    Genre: Documentary

    In 2008, an organization determined to surpass Al Qaida as the world's most feared terrorist group sent 10 gunmen to Mumbai on a mission of murder. Their mission: to stage a spectacle so cruel and terrifying that the world could no longer ignore Lashkar-e-Taiba--the "Army of the Righteous." This documentary tells the inside story of the horrifying attack as told by the victims--and by the terrorists themselves. (TV14) ()

  10. #10
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    203

    Default

    I read Peril in Pakistan by FB Ali on Pat Lamb's blog in which he linked to some recent polling data. Amongst which

    On the Mumbai bombings they were first told that the Pakistan group Lashkar-e-Taiba were being fingered in the media.
    Do you believe this? - 75% No, 7% Yes.
    The follow up was
    Who then? A third did not know 42% India, 20% US no one else exceeded 1%

    If this is a true reflection of Pakistani public opinion it means that about one in every seven Pakistanis think that America sent its covert operatives to blow up a hotel in Mumbai and kill 146 civilians. Which is a little worrying as this is the population of our 'ally' against terrorism but they seem to think we are the terrorists.

    Also when asked who they liked/disliked Osama bin Laden just beat their own Prime Minister in the popularity stakes (although neither did very well).

  11. #11
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    861

    Default

    In matters of national security, in most modern states, the MAJORITY of the population sensibly follows the lead of their government and specially their military. If there was a terrorist attack in Canada and the US govt and army told everyone that USA was not involved and enemies of the USA (RED China, Palau, whatever) did it, you would find that a good 75% would say thats what they think. How would they know any better?

    In Pakistan, ISI is still arresting journalists who try to take foreigners to the village of Ajmal Qasab. Pakistani television has never made it clear that any Pakistani had anything to do with it. Lots of religious parties, columnists, news anchors and so on go around saying these are all plots by Hindus, Jews, USA and so on.

    What do you expect 75% of the people to believe?

  12. #12
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    203

    Default

    I note the poll was conducted in March and AFAIK the Pakistani government accepted Lashkar-e-Taiba’s involvement in January. I do not know how the Pakistani public get their information and which sources they believe. The poll would indicate they do not hold their own government in very high esteem. In any case does it really matter? How they came to their belief is not the point; we have to deal with the reality of a population that basically views the US as the enemy and their own government as their accomplices. Any policy initiatives or military actions should be framed based on these realities not the lip service being paid by those who are benefiting form US largesse.

    Omarali50 I am not sure I followed your Canadian bombing analogy. I would question the “sensibly follows the lead of their government” bit. As I recall polling data - long after the US Administration had admitted that Iraq was in no way involved in 9/11 – showed a large proportion of the public still thought it was. This seems to back up your assertion that the public will believe what they were told by the government, however it throws into question whether they were sensible so to do. When my government looked like it was going to go to war in Iraq my children went off and protested. I stayed at home confident that while the WMD claims seemed very weak the intelligence they were privy to – and I was not – must have been very strong as they would not attack another country without solid proof. Less than 75% of my fellow citizens (UK – are we a modern state?) fell for the propaganda and I will be more difficult to con next time. As you say it is difficult for the public to come to a judgement as there is seldom any reliable information. One other worrying point in your post is the military. How did they get in to this conversation? I hope they will not be telling me what to think about anything, they should implement the policies of the politicians – assuming we are talking about democracies rather than military governments.
    Last edited by JJackson; 11-20-2009 at 01:37 PM.

  13. #13
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    861

    Default

    Maybe i was being too sensible with that "sensibly" thing.

    I was thinking of an earlier post of mine where I argued that even when people believe lies told by their national security apparatus, there is some rationality to this attitude. Most people are not "in the know" and the point at which you decide your own govt is a bunch of manipulative liars is (for most people, not University types) a step too far because they still have to live in that country, with that govt, and the alternative may be anarchy.

    Sorry, not very clear here, but I have to run soon, will try again someday.

    Anyway, my point was that people in Pakistan are not ouliers in this matter of being influenced by their national security apparatus. The outlier is the national security apparatus, which believes that its in their interest to propagate lies about this issue in order to keep their dominant position within domestic politics.

  14. #14
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Calcutta, India
    Posts
    1,124

    Default

    Key 26/11 conspirator Abu Hamza arrested at Delhi Airport

    http://www.readability.com/articles/io2ksvf0

    Also see Saudi Assistance and Pak Passport

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/i.../1/202430.html

    Abu Hamza was in Saudi Arabia to gather funds for big terror strike; Pakistan tried to prevent his extradition: Sources
    http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ab...-his-ex-235989

  15. #15
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Calcutta, India
    Posts
    1,124

    Default

    Lashkar backer detained at US airport

    Houston, June 28 (PTI): Former Pakistani minister Shaikh Rashid, known for his support for the Lashkar-e-Toiba, was detained at Houston airport on arrival for his possible links with Jamat-ud-Dawa founder Hafiz Saeed, the mastermind of the Mumbai attacks.

    The JuD is considered to be a cover for the Lashkar-e-Toiba.

    http://www.telegraphindia.com/112062...p#.T-2If7Ue7CA

  16. #16
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Calcutta, India
    Posts
    1,124

    Default

    In my opinion, Pakistan is as sane a country as any other.

    The only problem is that it suffers from schizophrenia.

    The Muslims of India created a new country because they felt Muslims would be swamped by Hindus of India. Very justifiable if you ask me, given their arguments of those time. However, that is where the rot started. The intelligentsia of what became Pakistan came from India, what are called the Mohajirs.

    The Mohajir were the educated lot, the leaders in the field of education, commerce, law, governance and administration. The real sons of the soil of Pakistan (the area which became West Pakistan) were feudal satraps and military men who had jagirs and so on. Beyond the feudal lords there were mere rustics who were bonded labour and some.

    This is where the jockeying started. Would the Punjabis ( the rich feudal and military) satraps be the ones who chalk the destiny or the refugees from India, the educated and commercially astute Mohajirs?

    Mohajirs took over the govt (Jinnah was a Mohajir and a whole lot of others), administration, judiciary and commerce. To ensure that they were not uprooted, they engineered to drum in Islam as the raison d’ętre for Pakistan and brought in Urdu (the language of sophisticated Muslim of UP India) as the national language. The so called Pakistani ‘sons of the soil’ were outmanoeuvred!!!!

    Kashmir came as a manna. The sons of the soil were the backbone of the Army. This allowed them to project themselves as the ‘saviour’ of Pakistan and cleverly using the Mohajirs’ ‘anti India and anti Hindu’ agenda. So, the Mohajirs were checkmated.

    Ever since, this has been the lever for jockeying for power in Pakistan.

    The anti India agenda is the core of Pak politics. They have used US and now they are using China.

    However, Pakistan is at the cross roads.

    They have alienated the US for reasons that is so obvious that it requires no elaboration. And now they are upsetting China because they are being unable to control the influx of insurgents in Xinjaing.

    The unfortunate part of Pakistan, is that while the wanted to ensure no Hindu majority to impede the rise of Muslims of the sub continent, they failed miserably in this pursuit. They then added the tack to be the supreme leader of the Islamic world with the nuclear bomb and spawning terrorists calling them euphemistically as Mujahideen and Taliban and they too has backfired.

    One should pity them!
    Last edited by Ray; 06-29-2012 at 11:35 AM.

  17. #17
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,366

    Default New Evidence of Pak Role in the Mumbai Attacks?

    An article based on a PBS Frontline broadcast two days ago, with lots of details:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...umbai-attacks/

    It will be a long time before the accused appears in an Indian criminal court and the allegations are tested Indian style.

    Interesting commentary on Saudi Arabia first:
    For the last two years, Ansari lived in Saudi Arabia, where he had been “talent spotting” for another “massive attack,” an official with New Delhi’s antiterrorist police unit told Reuters, though he did not specify whether India was the target.
    and second:
    Saudi assistance in turning over Ansari would be unusual because Saudi Arabia and India are not natural partners, according to ex-CIA analyst Bruce Riedel. “I’m puzzled by why the Saudis would do this, but it would make sense if they were being pushed by the U.S. and other countries who want Lashkar put out of business,” he told FRONTLINE.
    davidbfpo

  18. #18
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Calcutta, India
    Posts
    1,124

    Default

    He will sing like a canary!

    Another one Fasih is coming in thanks to a nudge nudge wink wink from the US.

  19. #19
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    SW Asia
    Posts
    21

    Default Kasab hanged amid secrecy

    Questions are being raised surrounding the sudden and secret hanging of Kasab in India.

    From International Business Times India:
    Ajmal Kasab a Victim of Dengue or Was He Hanged till Death? Soon after the news of Mohammed Ajmal Kasab's hanging was announced, several people started raising questions about the government's secrecy over his execution. While several people, including the victims' families supported the decision, many have raised doubts on the social networking sites asking whether the terrorist was actually hanged or he died of dengue.
    The rumor of Kasab dying of dengue has become a hot topic of discussion on Twitter.

    Excerpt From OneIndia News:

    Mumbai, Nov 21: The swiftness and secrecy in which the execution of Pakistani terrorist Ajmal Kasab took place have come as a surprise to many. People are wondering why so much secrecy was maintained before hanging Kasab? Kasab was hanged till death at Yerwada jail in Pune around 7.30 am on Wednesday, Nov 21. Kasab, who was held in Mumbai's Arthur Road jail, was then moved to Pune's Yerwada prison."We kept secrecy. It was important to maintain secrecy in this matter," Shinde said, adding that Pakistan had been informed of the execution.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 11-22-2012 at 08:15 PM. Reason: Citations in quotes, PM to author

  20. #20
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,366

    Default A timely departure

    Personally I have no problem with India's decision to execute this man, who gunned down many innocents at Mumbai's railway station, nearly four years ago.

    The BBC's local reporter, in a good report, noted that:
    many believe, the government, beset by allegations of scandal and inaction, timed the execution perfectly.

    It came a day before the beginning of the winter session of the parliament, where it's primed to face a noisy and tough opposition. It also came five days before the fourth anniversary of the attacks when the main opposition BJP would have almost certainly reminded the government of its "failure" to execute Qasab.
    Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20422270

    Some of the victim's reaction are in another BBC article; this says it all:
    ...the sense that someone has been finally held accountable for the deaths makes the sense of injustice slightly more bearable than before.
    Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20423470

    A comment on the Indian Twitter surge:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20426516 and the Indian press reaction:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20440455
    davidbfpo

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •