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Thread: Foreign Language Training & Use

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    Council Member xf4wso's Avatar
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    Default Foreign Language Training & Use

    I would be interested in hearing from anyone with experience in learning and/or using one of the languages from recent conflict zones (i.e. Dari, Pashto, Arabic). In particular, was their a significant difference between what was learned in a classroom vs. the real language in country? How well did the language training prepare you? What was the benefit of knowing the language? What would you suggest about language learning for someone going to the area(s) you were in?

    Thanks in advance for your feedback, everyone!

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    Default It really depends on you.

    I think language learnt in a classroom is only good to a certain extent. What is learnt in a classroom can be rapidly lost after the class is over until you find a medium to continue to practice.

    There are 2 things about practicing language in a conflict zone- will you be outside the wire and/or how much will you interact with the host nation population?

    If you will be living on a govt. installation, then you will probably have a better chance to practice languages like Hindi/Nepali/Tamil/Bengali/Tagalog just by talking to the guys working at the gym,etc. That is unless you will have opportunity to use the language for your work (or posted to a GCC country where you can venture out and interact with locals).

    I think an excellent way to continue your studies after you class is over is to watch movies/news and listen to lots of music in the target language. Basically language study is a very personal and dynamic thing and a continual process, there is no formula so you have to find out what works for you. I am fluent in 5 languages and I still have to study before each proficiency test to make sure I do well. I have lived the 3 countries to which 3 of my languages were native to, and those are my 3 best languages, so it will definitely help if you get a chance to practice with locals. Good luck!

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    To your question about classroom vs. real language- there is generally a difference in how the language is spoken, for example, rural vs. urban, regional accents and dialects, slang etc.

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    Welcome aboard! To your questions, and as parvati mentioned, a lot will depend on your job and your motivation to immerse. Living on a FOB in the current risk-averse US Army environment will limit your ability to get out and really work with the host nation in the target language. If you're lucky enough to be outside of a HQ bubble and really able to get out and about, then school, at least the US Defense Language Institute, will have prepared you well.

    I've taken DLI courses (Dari) both times before I deployed to Afghanistan (Kabul). 4 month short courses for Afghan Hands immediately prior to deployment. It's enough to be able to converse in basic discussions in basic tenses (simple present and subjunctive, intransitives, active/passive sentence construction, negative conjugation, past progressive, present perfect, future progressive, etc...) but not in any work-related relevant vocabulary. 4-8 months isn't enough in my limited experience to build enough vocab to deal with heavy COIN issues. Basic security things, police/military ops, etc...and of course normal vocab at the 1+ level, but not governance, COIN, political, economic vocab.

    But back to your point, training prepared me well to break the ice with Afghans, get them comfortable with my friendliness and openness, and show them that I'm making an effort...which is very important towards relationship and trust building. Not much more capability than that though. And remember the Dari (at least in DLI) will be the formal, academic language versus the spoken, colloquial language. That'll be amusing for locals to hear you speak but it won't be any kind of roadblock.

    Ultimately, how useful it is will depend on you. How much you study outside of school and how much you push yourself to immerse once you get there (if you're able to). But the formal military schooling and syllabus at DLI is constructed well to prepare you to start fairly capably in the target language and build from there.
    Last edited by kotkinjs1; 02-10-2013 at 01:34 PM.

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    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvati View Post
    I think an excellent way to continue your studies after you class is over is to watch movies/news and listen to lots of music in the target language. Basically language study is a very personal and dynamic thing and a continual process, there is no formula so you have to find out what works for you.
    When I was learning Spanish abroad I remember that having the opportunity to watch English language films with Spanish subtitles was especially helpful to me.

    FWIW, one of the principles of immersion programs is that the combination of more exposure and less time improves learning outcome as opposed to more exposure alone (i.e., 40 hours of exposure and/or instruction over the course of a week will yield better results than 40 hours of exposure and/instruction over the course of a month).
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    People often forget how quickly languages change.

    Long long ago I worked briefly on an "interactive laser disc" (yes, that long ago) training system that had been commissioned by the State Dept for instruction in Tagalog. They needed a white guy that spoke Tagalog, and I was around. The script had been prepared in the US by a woman who was apparently the senior and most respected teacher of the language in DC. She'd apparently been teaching there for over 20 years.

    When we actually looked at the script, it turned out to be virtually unintelligible to anyone who spoke the language in its modern incarnation. Filipinos who read it had vague memories of their grandparents talking like that. For me (having picked up Tagalog on the back streets of Cubao) it was essentially a different language. Any diplomat who actually learned from that script would have been, in effect, learning a dead language.

    I wonder if any similar events occur in other languages, particularly those that are spoken over wide areas and with significant local variation, and with languages that are rapidly evolving...
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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    Council Member xf4wso's Avatar
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    Default Appreciation

    Thanks to all who have responded. I found the info on subtitled TV programs, DLI courses and Tagalog quite interesting. I have some background in Arabic, Persian and, having lived in Turkey now for a number or years, Turkish. I used subtitled TV programs when I was first learning Turkish, and I discovered that there are some dialects of the language that are quite different from the standard language that I learned.

    As for Dari, does the DLI give any reason for teaching the formal/written language rather than the spoken one? I know that written Dari is almost identical to written Farsi, but that the spoken forms are somewhat different, but mutually intelligible. It would seem to me that in most situations in Afghanistan knowledge of everyday speech would be more useful than the written language.

    Finally, which language is more useful in Kabul, Dari or Pashto?

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    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xf4wso View Post
    It would seem to me that in most situations in Afghanistan knowledge of everyday speech would be more useful than the written language.
    My experience in doing coursework in anthropology is that classroom instruction in all languages was invariably in a different register than that which we wanted to be able to eventually use in day-to-day interactions. So we looked at what we were getting in the classroom as the base from which we were going to build as much as anything else. That inevitably results in some timesink when you get in-country, but there is a practical side to consider when dealing with language with which there is a lot of local variation (something I am sure you are aware of if you have worked with Arabic!).
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    People often forget how quickly languages change.

    I wonder if any similar events occur in other languages, particularly those that are spoken over wide areas and with significant local variation, and with languages that are rapidly evolving...
    Hey Dude !
    Just recently with a trip to Congo I realized how backwards my Belgian French and Lingala were. Kids laughing at you is a pretty good sign you are speaking a dead language.

    When I got here in 95 and my first Estonian teacher returned from the States and we had dinner together, she too realized that her three years in DC had left her high and dry with Estonian. She refused to believe that the student had now become the teacher. With less than 1,5 million Estonian speakers in the world, they still managed to evolve leaving their grandparents behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by xf4wso View Post
    It would seem to me that in most situations in Afghanistan knowledge of everyday speech would be more useful than the written language.
    To echo Matt, better to concentrate on colloquial language and not worry about written... total different ball game for C2 speakers. Not to throw you under the bus or anything, but with four languages I reached real proficiency in country after about 5 years. That is to say, when they started to accuse me of being Finnish (which is a serious insult reserved for Russians) I knew I was there. Can't get rid of the accent, but can indeed improve on the grammar and speaking skills.

    Stay safe Bro !

    Stan
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    Same kind of issues regarding Hindi and Urdu. In the upper classes in Pakistan and India, people tend to speak a mixture of English and Hindi/Urdu. I can totally relate to Mr. Stan for being laughed at for speaking a more formal version of the language - “why are you speaking such pure Hindi like my great-grandfather/Urdu teacher/chai boy from some village”?

    In Mumbai, they speak Mumbaiya – a pretty much crude street slang “gansta” version of Hindi (Dawood Ibrahim and Co. speak this kind of Hindi). If one were write a language test in the Mumbaiya version, they would totally fail the writing test and if one were to speak in DLI Hindi on the streets of Mumbai, they would be understood, but laughed at.

    Like Mr. Ganulv said, there needs to be kind of a standardization, as you probably know Arabic from Africa vs. Arabic from the Gulf etc.

    It is also the case with European languages. If you study classical Italian then good luck understanding people speak in Naples! Likewise with Spanish.

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    Having learned what is euphamistically termed Modern Standard Arabic in the Yemen I discovered to my horror in the Lebanon that most people thought I had emerged out of the dark ages (my skin tone completed the impression of my being a Yemeni interloper). I suppose it's analogous to the difference between Quebeci French and "proper" French! Even in Yemen the variations in colloquialisms and language usage varied from one region to another (esp. in the East) but also between North and South and even cities. MSA is a good place to start, then you really have to start learning

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    Default More appreciation

    Again, thank all of you for your responses. I have found the issues of register and change over time to be equally interesting in Turkish. With speakers of non-standard (i.e. non-Istanbul) Turkish, for a long time they could easily understand me while I would struggle to make out what they were saying. Older speakers will often use words borrowed from Persian or Arabic while younger speakers will use words based on Turkic roots. However, vocabulary is often an idicator of the speaker's world-view. Leftists will often use "pure" Turkish words, even when they are not in common use, while those of a more religious bent will sprinkle their speech with more Arabic and some Persian, even when these expressions are equally uncommon.

    Many of you seem to have a background in what (in the US at least) would be considered "less commonly taught" languages. Your reasons for learning are varied I am sure, but how would you try to encourage students today to study these languages? Many Americans seem to be a bit on the lazy side when it comes to languages where the grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation and/or script are noticeably different from English.

    I look forward to your responses!

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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xf4wso View Post
    Many of you seem to have a background in what (in the US at least) would be considered "less commonly taught" languages. Your reasons for learning are varied I am sure, but how would you try to encourage students today to study these languages? Many Americans seem to be a bit on the lazy side when it comes to languages where the grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation and/or script are noticeably different from English.

    I look forward to your responses!
    Not sure about the rest of us, but learning foreign languages was something I personally wanted to do. The FLPB back in the 70s was abysmal regardless of how many languages and to what levels you managed (about 250 bucks a month max as late as 95). Nowadays, the cap is a cool grand but only for languages the Army wants ! So if money is the deciding factor, then things just got better looking.

    We’ve come a long way from the days that one had to take a DLAB to remotely determine if he/she was capable of learning a foreign language and even then, only if that individual’s MOS supported that need. We now know – very late in the game – that the occupational specialty is not so relevant. Probably lost hundreds of great linguists to a bunch of uptight Pentagon staff (that had not a clue what it takes to learn and maintain language proficiency).

    BTW, even learning two languages in addition to English as a child, I failed the DLAB while I was in Korea. If not for my CO telling the examiner that I already started to speak Korean after two months in country and conversed with the Swiss daily, I was doomed to fail.

    Other than cold hard cash and/or at least a real desire to learn, I have no clue how to motivate the current generation when it comes to learning a foreign language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kotkinjs1 View Post
    But back to your point, training prepared me well to break the ice with Afghans, get them comfortable with my friendliness and openness, and show them that I'm making an effort...which is very important towards relationship and trust building.
    The people in this discussion are mostly quite proficient in some other languages. I am not. For somebody like me kotkinjs1's point above is of supreme importance. It cannot be overstated. They know you are never going to be able to get much but they respect you for trying. Combine that with old fashioned gentlemanly behavior and most of the people you work with will be favorably inclined toward you. That, literally, can save your life.

    Most people who go overseas won't get much beyond the "Donde esta el bano?" stage but even that level can be hugely helpful, especially when combined with the right attitude.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Quote Originally Posted by xf4wso View Post
    how would you try to encourage students today to study these languages? Many Americans seem to be a bit on the lazy side when it comes to languages where the grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation and/or script are noticeably different from English.
    I think one obstacle is that many Americans go through much of their youth, often their entire youth, without any serious exposure to a second language. In much of the world that's quite unusual... my 16 year old daughter speaks 4 languages fluently and sees nothing at all unusual or remarkable about that.

    I've never seen any scientific studies on the matter and I'm certainly no linguist, but my own observations convince me that people who grow up with multiple languages, or at least have early exposure to multiple languages, find it easier to pick up languages for the rest of their lives. If you get to age 20 with only one language, you're pretty much screwed. It seems like if you get to a certain age with only one way of saying things your brain just locks down on that and has a very difficult time accommodating other ways of saying things. Not to say it's impossible, but the effort involved is far greater than it is for people who have experienced that flexibility from an early age.

    My memories of French, German, and Latin are very rudimentary, but I think that having once been at least functional in all 3 made it much easier to pick up Cebuano and Tagalog.

    If someone with actual expertise in the matter comes along and tells me I'm full of it I'll gladly concede the point... just how it looks to a rank amateur, albeit a multilingual one.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    I've never seen any scientific studies on the matter and I'm certainly no linguist, but my own observations convince me that people who grow up with multiple languages, or at least have early exposure to multiple languages, find it easier to pick up languages for the rest of their lives.
    It's like playing a musical instrument (or learning a martial art or style of skiing or a number of other skills): every time you know one more well,* the next one comes more easily. It is generally thought that children enjoy a full access to Universal Grammar which adults do not, but the evidence is not unequivocal in that regard.

    *The caveat is well. Going on to the next one before getting a good grasp on the one you have started tends to lead to confusion.
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    It is generally thought that children enjoy a full access to Universal Grammar which adults do not, but the evidence is not unequivocal in that regard.
    I find it hard to believe that American children have full access to any grammar at all, but that is perhaps just me being a contentious old fart...
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Children Learning Languages faster than Adults:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    I think one obstacle is that many Americans go through much of their youth, often their entire youth, without any serious exposure to a second language. In much of the world that's quite unusual... my 16 year old daughter speaks 4 languages fluently and sees nothing at all unusual or remarkable about that.

    If someone with actual expertise in the matter comes along and tells me I'm full of it I'll gladly concede the point... just how it looks to a rank amateur, albeit a multilingual one.
    Steve,
    This article in the Foreign Policy Journal is right up your alley.

    The author painstakingly describes and supports his experience and theories, which generally busts the myth about children learning faster. But he has a point similar to yours... exposure. A good read with some real funny bits !

    A survey of people working as professional interpreters would show that 80% of them graduated from less than five universities in the world.

    None of them were children.

    In conclusion, my theory is if an adult and a child attend the same number of hours of classes, the adult will learn faster. In practice, however, adults have lives. They are busy people, and studying is a kind of luxury, which generally takes second place to work and earning money and taking care of their family.

    However, given the same number of hours of classes, an adult would learn a language faster than a child. The proof is Monterey Institute, Defense Language Institute, and Middlebury Language Program, all of which can take an adult student from zero to passing a college entrance exam in a foreign language in just one to two years.
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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    The article talks about learning in a classroom setting, where I would agree that adults would learn faster, largely because they have a longer attention span and can endure more classroom time. Take two adults and two children and put them in a foreign language environment without classes, my bet is the kids will be speaking the new language way before the adults, especially if they are playing with local kids.

    When my oldest son was 4 we moved to a place where the prevailing language was one he'd never spoken or heard. He showed no sign of learning it for about 6 months, and then just started speaking it, no accent issues, just chattering away. It was like a bucket filling up and then running over. I can't say all kids learn like that, obviously, but it was an interesting thing to observe. There was no visible "learning process", no "what does this mean" or "how do I say that". I'd guess kids would have a hard time if expected to learn like an adult learns in a classroom, and an easier time learning by pure immersion.

    I'd still be interested in seeing data on rate of learning a completely new language in adults that have been multilingual since birth vs adults that have been monolingual since birth.
    Last edited by Dayuhan; 02-13-2013 at 09:19 PM.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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    Default Combination?

    My background is that I have several years experience working as a Linguist for the govt. I speak 5 languages fluently plus another 5, I barely speak and/or understand. The 5 that I speak fluently, I learned by the time I was 12. The other 5, I picked up here and there and put no hardcore effort to learn or improve and learning remains so very stagnant. I believe that if my only job was to play with locals and learn languages, then I would be able to learn new languages and gain fluency in a decent timeframe even now.

    Regarding children vs. adult learning debate, I would say that learning how to speak a new language is much easier for children. However, after a certain point it is schooling (college/DLI/home study) that makes a person refined in a language, that is where the adult learning part comes in place. I picked up Italian in Italy during my high school years and when I was in college in the US, my Italian professors would always tell me not to speak/write in Roman slang and deduct points for that. That is where I think the adult learning is crucial. If a child lives abroad for 18 years, picks up a language just by speaking with people/watching television etc., that person will most probably speak fluently. However, unless they are reading books and writing a little, they will not be able to pass a 4+/5 level reading/writing proficiency test because those tests are hard and are at college level or at least high school honors level. So the testers will most probably not pass a person at a native level if one starts speaking a more street version of the language picked in back alleys or slang picked up in high school.

    To Mr. Dayuhan's question about multilingual individuals learning a brand new language as adults, I would say, it is not as easy as learning while younger, one reason is definitely not having time to play with locals :-)

    If all other things being equal, a hard-working, eager to learn monolingual and a lazy multilingual who doesn't put any effort are put in a class to learn a language with no prior exposure, I would think that the monolingual would fare better just by the sheer effort to learn?

    I salute all of you who are leaning new languages and putting an effort, most specially if you didn't grow up in that linguistic environment.

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