F-16 Replacement

[carl]

even though I also added my comment on the big, slow, lumbering and very straight wing F3D shooting down one Mig (true)...

The Skyknight got more than that, 7 kills and one probable vs. one loss. Most of the kills were MiGs I think. There were special circumstance though.

The Soviets were a mix of old and new pilots. One of the books I have says that the success of MiG units varied on how many experienced pilots were in the units as they rotated through.

The B-29s were driven from the daylight skies within range of the MiGs. There weren't enough F-86s to protect them and the straight wing jets may as well not have been there.

Navy and Marine aviation were critical of course but they had nothing that could deal MiG-15 either. They were mostly light bombers.

Mass can trump quality if the quality differential isn't too great. Straight wing jets vs. swept wing jets the quality differential was too great. There was no way to overcome that unless we were wiling to sustain a loss rate that would have whitened our hair. The F-84 got 10 MiGs and the MiGs got 18 F-84s.

[Fuchs]

The Soviets were a mix of old and new pilots. One of the books I have says that the success of MiG units varied on how many experienced pilots were in the units as they rotated through.

It was even more complicated, and that explains why so many reports and anecdotes about Korean air combat seem to be contradictory.


The Russians had two air forces; the strategic homeland defence force (interceptors/bomber destroyers, but partially equipped just like front-line fighters) and the front-line/tactical air force.

The Soviet tactical air force was working steadily towards air superiority over parts of North Korea when political envy and infighting allowed the homeland defence forces to get their rotation into the theatre - and they blew it because they lacked dogfight training.

So there weren't only rookies and veterans, but also front-line and interceptor MiG-15 pilots; four very distinct groups (save for the few veterans who flew in the interceptor squadrons).

[TAH]

Some of this is not some much airframe number comparision versus numbers of advanced Air-to-Air weapons. Buy enough AMRAAMs and the number of F22 begins to become mote. Don't buy enough and the overall situation changes.

[Ken White]

Buy enough AMRAAMs and the number of F22 begins to become mote. Don't buy enough and the overall situation changes.

then the number of AMRAAMs one possesses becomes moot...

Not to mention countermeasures...

[Fuchs]

Ken, this was funny. I read "Meteor" and was still mentally in Korea War history...for a split second I wondered what Meteors and AMRAAMs have in common.

[Ken White]

I left out the Vampires (none in Korea to my knowledge but they were arguably better fighters than the Meteors)...

[Entropy]

Ken,

If you're going to bring up the quantity-over-quality argument, then you really shouldn't leave out zombies.

[Cliff]

Some of this is not some much airframe number comparision versus numbers of advanced Air-to-Air weapons. Buy enough AMRAAMs and the number of F22 begins to become mote. Don't buy enough and the overall situation changes.

TAH-

The F-22 can carry 6 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders. While you could carry more externally, you sacrifice some stealth.

That is one of the big problems with 187 Raptors... not enough jets and missiles.

V/R,

Cliff

[Kiwigrunt]

One of the F16 designers trashes the F35.

[Maeda Toshiie]

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28260781

The fighter plane in question: Textron AirLand Scorpion

The Scorpion costs about $20m (£12m) a throw, is built from off-the-shelf components, and went from drawing board to first flight in 23 months.

It is being pitched as a lost cost alternative to the current fighter jet fleets. In particular, it is being sold as being suited for COIN like operations in OEF/OIF.


Thoughts:

With the development of the F15 under the F-X program, the USAF found it impossible to equip every standing squadron with it. This lead to the light weight fighter program with the F16 as the winner. The results was a mix of Hi/Lo or Heavy/Light. Of course, the F16 has evolved into a true multirole combat aircraft. The F35, as the successor, is even further away from the original low.

If we wish to have a Hi(F22)/Med(F35)/Lo mix of combat aircraft, I don't see this filling in the lo. Something like the Golden Eagle from Korea, JF17 from PRC, or a modern variant of the F5/T38 would be far suitable. The first obviously suffer from the "not-made-here", the second is obviously out of question, the third doesn't exist (at least not yet). The obvious fear is that this "new" lo in the mix of three, will again suffer from mission bloat that it will eventually become a new "medium".

For COIN like operations, jets have high speeds to race into position as necessary, but is probably associated with higher operating costs (I'm not an expert in this). Would something like a modernized OV10 Bronco or Argentinian Pucara be a better choice? Apparently, the Pucara was used by government forces in Sri Lanka.


Thoughts?

[Ken White]

One of the books I have says that the success of MiG units varied on how many experienced pilots were in the units as they rotated through.

Books are often but not always correct. However, that book got that obvious truth correct...

The B-29s were driven from the daylight skies within range of the MiGs.

Deja vu all over again. Daylight bombing without local air superiority (there is and will be no air dominance...) is hazardous to Bombers. What a surprise.

Navy and Marine aviation were critical of course but they had nothing that could deal MiG-15 either. They were mostly light bombers.

The F9F did okay on the rare occasions it encountered Mig 15s. They were rare due to operational location and range (both) considerations, not to avoidance. Several former Panther pilots I talked to, former Brother in law and his friends, had scraps with Mig 15s. They acknowledge its technical superiority but claimed it could be beaten. They and other Navy / MC aircraft were mostly light bombers for a variety of reasons -- I would never suggest that the most significant was that they did a far better job at it and everyone in Korea knew that.

It also was a matter of location and range...

Mass can trump quality if the quality differential isn't too great.

Adequate Mass can trump a hugaceous amount, indeed any amount, of quality...

The F-84 got 10 MiGs and the MiGs got 18 F-84s.

Pilot quality, maybe? The F9Fs got 5 Migs and the Migs got no Panthers...

[Fuchs]

Pilot quality, maybe? The F9Fs got 5 Migs and the Migs got no Panthers...

Such very small data samples have only anecdotal, no real empirical value.

16 Fw 190A hunted 4 P-51's over the beaches of Normandy during Overlord and destroyed some of them. Now guess how representative this sample was...