We still don't grasp the value of translators

[Ken White]

Ken, I'm not trying to smartass you, but what you're describing isn't realistic at all in Afghanistan.

It wasn't realistic in Viet Nam either. One does what one has to do. My son has two Infantry tours in Afghanistan, he doesn't seem to see it as a major problem.

At those times, clear, detailed communication between U.S. troops and locals is an absolutely vital requirement in both Iraq and Afghanistan. And that's not something you can get from simply meeting people and learning some basic phrases like "what is your name" or "how much does this cost."

In reverse order, the basic phrase bit was in response to your comment:

"Ken, how exactly would soldiers and marines conduct COIN without competent interpreters?"

You said Soldiers and Marines and I responded at that level.

Had I known you really meant "how can Companies and Battalions effectively communicate with the village Maliks or elders," I would've responded differently. That is indeed a different Ball game. My son had no big problems with interpreters at that level in either Afghanistan or in Iraq. I had and saw no problems at that level in Viet Nam as an Interpreter was made available or we could borrow one from the nearest SF Camp. While 'terp quality can certainly vary, I find it hard to believe that a Battalion cannot get a couple of really good ones and send them where needed. Ideally, we'd have US nationals, in the service, who are good enough but that is never going to happen in your lifetime, not in adequate numbers or with the educational system in the US.

In any event, after a couple of years in the ME, I'll note that whatever gets said by the folks in the village during those meetings is highly likely to be nonoperative as soon as you leave.

But, then, you know that -- and, seriously, I know it doesn't mean you don't have to try.

I showed the CO, who was similarly infuriated and we (this part is fuzzy now) got word of it to the battalion commander who made some calls...All I know is that a few days later we got some new boots.

I figured as much; so something got done about it which was the important thing. Whether the Support unit fixed their internal problem can never be known; we can only hope...

My solution to that problem is to transfer the poor performers in the rear to a line unit for a while. Actually, not mine, a Regimental Commander in the 1st MarDiv -- it really worked; after about three of those; support improved by several orders of magnitude. That also has been done recently in Iraq on a back scratching deal between two Colonel commanders from different branches...

[Brandon Friedman]

One does what one has to do. My son has two Infantry tours in Afghanistan, he doesn't seem to see it as a major problem.

We're not succeeding there, either. We'd be doing much better if we could communicate more effectively.

In reverse order, the basic phrase bit was in response to your comment:You said Soldiers and Marines and I responded at that level.

Had I known you really meant "how can Companies and Battalions effectively communicate with the village Maliks or elders," I would've responded differently. That is indeed a different Ball game. My son had no big problems with interpreters at that level in either Afghanistan or in Iraq. I had and saw no problems at that level in Viet Nam as an Interpreter was made available or we could borrow one from the nearest SF Camp. While 'terp quality can certainly vary, I find it hard to believe that a Battalion cannot get a couple of really good ones and send them where needed.

Ken, these meetings with village elders aren't necessarily taking place at the company or battalion level. Much (if not most) of the day-to-day coordinations/check-ins/negotiations with locals are done at the platoon level. Companies and battalions are spread over vast areas and platoons often have their own CPs (like at Wanat). I was out of Afghanistan before it was set up like that there, but in Iraq, my battalion was responsible for covering a 600 square-mile area (20 miles X 30 miles). As I mentioned above, at one point, my 100-man company was responsible for a rural 100 square-mile sector. We had one platoon--along with the company CP--at Ayn Zalah, we had another platoon located in the village of Bardiyah, and a third platoon in the town of Zumar--all miles apart. These platoons patrolled, met with local leaders, and, most importantly, cultivated relationships daily. Each platoon had one interpreter--the ones we'd hired and brought along from Baghdad earlier in the year--and it still wasn't enough. And the reason it wasn't enough was because patrolling squads needed an interpreter, while at the same time, the platoon CP needed one to deal with locals who approached with issues. I don't imagine it's much different from that today in Afghanistan.

[Ken White]

As it always is. Unfortunately, I doubt there will be much improvement for a host of reasons, some good and some not. I understand the dispersion factor in Iraq and know, as you do, that the two theaters are very different. The Son was in a Rifle Platoon and had an interpreter; they worked away from the company more often than not.

However, on this, re: Afghanistan:

We're not succeeding there, either. We'd be doing much better if we could communicate more effectively.

I'm not sure on the 'succeeding' and I suspect that is very much dependent on one's perception of how success in Afghanistan will look. I also believe that it'll take a few months to determine how well or how badly we're doing.

My personal belief -- and that of a few recent returnees and some there now or on the way back -- is that better communication in the sense you mean would make little real or long term difference though I acknowledge short term gains might be had. In the long term, we are highly unlikely to get some of the things all can agree would be nice and that we claim to be working toward. The Afghans from any of the ethnic or language groups with whom one converses with will be polite and very accommodating -- and really just want us and the the sagerdan gone. Both. With all allies. Next month. Today would be better...

Good COIN technique is not a ticket to success; lack of it is bad, no question, and we certainly need to know more, train better and work at it a bit -- but the best practitioner in the world is not going to beat a stacked deck. Iraq just had a couple of Jokers in there -- the 'Stan is a stacked deck.

In any event, we aren't going to solve the problem and I acknowledge the issue is problematic and also agree it should be less a problem.

[goesh]

"It's about being able to sit down with a village leader in a man-to-man setting in order to get things straight." Brandon Friedman

Do any of these sit-downs ever occur in their mosques? If not, why not?
Do A-ghans ever invite us into their mosques for talks? Do we ever ask to talk with them in their mosques? It can be an edge - off with the boots, tell
'em there is but 1 god for all and there must be truth spoken in a holy place between men, of course they will know fast if one is a serious agnostic or simply not a believer, can't fake this with them