How soldiers deal with the job of killing

[carl]

As an aside on the subject of combat related books, there are of course exceptions but generally sensitive souls write and exorcise, sociopaths don't need to do so thus rarely bother.

Darn you Ken. I was going through this thread and thought of something to say that something Paul Fussell wrote got me to thinking of. Then you went and said it first.

JMM99 mentioned something about fighter aces and the whys of their success somewhere in a post above. I read an article years ago that suggested it was far more useful to look at units rather than individuals when looking for the whys of success. That made a lot of sense to me at the time and I stopped thinking about the whys of acedom. I haven't researched lately but I seem to remember that aces weren't evenly distributed throughout fighter forces but were mostly in good units. The whys of successful units are very well known to guys like Ken, Bill, JMA etc. and they differ not at all between ground and air units. The general public loves aces though.

[Ken White]

I read an article years ago that suggested it was far more useful to look at units rather than individuals when looking for the whys of success. That made a lot of sense to me at the time and I stopped thinking about the whys of acedom. I haven't researched lately but I seem to remember that aces weren't evenly distributed throughout fighter forces but were mostly in good units. The whys of successful units are very well known to guys like Ken, Bill, JMA etc. and they differ not at all between ground and air units. The general public loves aces though.

All true and is so whether we're talking ODAs (they are not all superb...), SEAL Teams (Squadrons...), Tank Battalions, Rifle Companies, Artillery Batteries or Supply and Service Companies. Good units make the difference. A really good person in a mediocre unit gets lost in the crush more often than not...

It's hard to soar like an Eagle when one is surrounded by Turkeys.

OTOH it is even more difficult to be a Turkey when you're surrounded by Eagles.

[jmm99]

The reference (here) was to the common denominator being that they (fighter aces) got into more fights when they were kids relative to the other pilots. Which gets us to "minor psychopaths" (or "minor sociopaths", whatever).

It strikes me (talking just about kids) that "minor psychopaths" are not all the same qualitatively. Let's take the "bully" first; but I'd put him on the shelf real quick because he won't take on anyone he thinks is equal or stronger. He'd make a lousy soldier (IMO), but he's one kind of "minor psychopath".

Then, there's the "defensive" kind who won't fight unless provoked - perhaps by a bully type, but also by one of the two "offensive" kinds of "minor psychopaths".

One of those is the kind who pushes other "minor psychopaths" who are within his capabilities just for the sake of seeing who comes out on top.

The other of those two is the kind who also pushes other "minor psychopaths" and doesn't care how far beyond his capabilities they are. A little nutsy that kind (but some booze also helped).

Those are my observations based on "minor psychopathic" kids I grew up with who saw a bit of violence as being a normal part of life.

Actually, the only kind I regard as being a "minor psychopath" is the bully. The others are simply your normal kids who won't take $hit. "Normal" for the Copper Country, but Carl can be a reality check on that.

And, covering Dropkick Murphys, while we sure weren't Vegan and definitely not Swedish, we were a bunch of sensitive guys - no need for us to take sensitivity training - honest.

Your thoughts ?

Regards

Mike

[carl]

Actually, the only kind I regard as being a "minor psychopath" is the bully. The others are simply your normal kids who won't take $hit. "Normal" for the Copper Country, but Carl can be a reality check on that.

Copy on Copper Country people. One of the reasons I really like the UP is because the people are so mostly old fashioned sensible in all things. Not a lot of posturing up there.

This comes from a forever a civilian regarding your asking for thoughts.

I think what Sydney Jary said is true, especially because you maybe aren't looking for exceptional individuals, you are looking for individuals who can be formed, and are willing to be formed, into an exceptional group. This is just a civilian's guess but the exceptional individual fighters may just sort of show up within a group that is selected for the qualities Jary mentioned.

Something else that goes with that is something else that I read long ago but forgot where. When you are selecting for a good military unit, you are selecting for the same things that you would select for if you were hiring for a business. You look for honesty, maturity, ability to get along, work ethic, punctuality, stick-to-itiveness etc. The only thing different for a military is perhaps physical fitness.

The above is one reason I was so optimistic about the chances the Libyan rebels had to win their fight, so many of them seemed to be small businessmen, teachers, university students etc; Copper Country guys who decided they had had enough. If the heavy weapons could be kept at bay for a while, I didn't think those guys could lose.

[jcustis]

The reference (here) was to the common denominator being that they (fighter aces) got into more fights when they were kids relative to the other pilots. Which gets us to "minor psychopaths" (or "minor sociopaths", whatever).

It strikes me (talking just about kids) that "minor psychopaths" are not all the same qualitatively. Let's take the "bully" first; but I'd put him on the shelf real quick because he won't take on anyone he thinks is equal or stronger. He'd make a lousy soldier (IMO), but he's one kind of "minor psychopath".

Then, there's the "defensive" kind who won't fight unless provoked - perhaps by a bully type, but also by one of the two "offensive" kinds of "minor psychopaths".

One of those is the kind who pushes other "minor psychopaths" who are within his capabilities just for the sake of seeing who comes out on top.

The other of those two is the kind who also pushes other "minor psychopaths" and doesn't care how far beyond his capabilities they are. A little nutsy that kind (but some booze also helped).

Those are my observations based on "minor psychopathic" kids I grew up with who saw a bit of violence as being a normal part of life.

Actually, the only kind I regard as being a "minor psychopath" is the bully. The others are simply your normal kids who won't take $hit. "Normal" for the Copper Country, but Carl can be a reality check on that.

And, covering Dropkick Murphys, while we sure weren't Vegan and definitely not Swedish, we were a bunch of sensitive guys - no need for us to take sensitivity training - honest.

Your thoughts ?

Regards

Mike

I love this clip:

http://youtu.be/isfn4OxCPQs