Pre and post deployment support

[AdamG]

Will this be labeled 'PTSD'?

Army to probe 5 slayings linked to Colo. brigade
By P. SOLOMON BANDA
Associated Press Writer
Oct 18, 10:12 AM EDT

DENVER (AP) -- Fort Carson soldiers returning from deployment in Iraq are suspects in at least five slayings, and officials want to know why.

Commander Maj. Gen. Mark Graham announced Friday a task force will examine any commonalities in the five killings, all allegedly committed by soldiers from the post's 4th Brigade Combat Team in the past 14 months. A sixth BCT soldier faces an attempted murder charge.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...TAM&SECTION=US

But wait, there's more.

The issue of homicides by combat-stressed veterans gained national prominence in January, after The New York Times reported that at least 121 Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans had committed a killing in the United States or been charged in one.

But then we read this...

Pfc. Jomar Dionisio Falu-Vives, 24, and Spc. Rodolfo Torres-Gandarilla, 20, face attempted murder charges in the May 26 wounding of Capt. Zachary Zsody, who was shot twice while standing at an intersection. An arrest affidavit released in August said an AK-47 used in the Zsody case was found in Falu-Vives' apartment and it was also used in the June 6 deaths of two people gunned down on the street while putting up signs for a garage sale.

Killed were Cesar Ramirez Ibanez, 21, and Amairany Cervantes, 28. Prosecutors filed murder charges against Falu-Vives on Sept. 15.

Anyone care to be that these two were scumbags before they enlisted and simply reverted back to their default personalities when they got home?Anyone care to bet that the accused have UCMJ actions signed by the above officer in their jackets?

[jmm99]

Anyone care to bet that these two were scumbags before they enlisted and simply reverted back to their default personalities when they got home?Anyone care to bet that the accused have UCMJ actions signed by the above officer in their jackets?

on either of the above propositions - that is my professional lawyer mode talking.

If I were the prosecutor (or defense counsel, for that matter), I would be very interested in their priors (if any) - both pre- and during military service. I would also be interested in any prior psychological workups of record.

The article suggests, as to one of these gems, definite pathology:

The affidavit said Marko told investigators he had violent sex with Lawrence before slitting her throat and leaving her to die in the foothills west of Colorado Springs.

That (to me) does not mean "not guilty by reason of insanity". All jurisdictions should have the alternative verdict form of "guilty, but mentally ill" - which means the criminal is first treated for the mental illness and then serves out the balance of the sentence for the crime.

There are not enough facts in what we know (from the article) to make hasty assumptions. Those facts will develop for those who want to follow the case.

There sure ain't enough facts to speculate that these crimes were proximately caused by the perps' military service - or even that military service was a "but for" causational factor.

PS: A few years ago, a small Houghton County village had four murders in one year (two by a serial killer who killed elsewhere in the area). Based solely on the bare statistics, one could conclude (falsely) that place was the Murder Capital of the USA.

[jmm99]

is the name of a Detroit rock band; but more important here is an alternative verdict to "not guilty by reason of insanity". Here is the background:

Physicians' Weekly
Point/Counterpoint
October 27, 1997
.....
Michigan was the first state to enact guilty but mentally ill. It was a [1975] reaction to a 1974 State Supreme Court decision holding that after 60 days’ confinement, someone acquitted by reason of insanity had to meet the standards of civil commitment. As a result, 64 persons were released, and two committed vicious crimes shortly afterward. ....

http://www.physiciansweekly.com/arch..._27_97/pc.html

The statute as it now stands is a bit lengthy (I've broken it into its parts for comment); but you have to have it before you to understand its logic and the comments.

As a practical matter, the statute will come into play only where (1) the defendant pleads not guilty by reason of mental illness ("insanity"); (2) proofs are offered to support mental illness; and (3) the proofs fail on the element of "lack of substantial capacity".

768.36 Defense of insanity in compliance with MCL 768.20a; finding of “guilty but mentally ill”; waiver of right to trial; plea of guilty but mentally ill; examination of reports; hearing; sentence; evaluation and treatment; discharge; report to parole board; treatment as condition of parole or probation; period of probation; psychiatric reports.

Sec. 36.

(1) If the defendant asserts a defense of insanity in compliance with section 20a of this chapter, the defendant may be found “guilty but mentally ill” if, after trial, the trier of fact finds all of the following:

(a) The defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of an offense.

(b) The defendant has proven by a preponderance of the evidence that he or she was mentally ill at the time of the commission of that offense.

(c) The defendant has not established by a preponderance of the evidence that he or she lacked the substantial capacity either to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his or her conduct or to conform his or her conduct to the requirements of the law.

OK, so three basic elements; of which, the last one is all important. It is particularly important if "PTSD" is alleged as the mental illness.

E.g., if a defendant could prove by a preponderence (50 yds + a nose) that he had flashbacks so delusional that Mr. McCarthy appeared as an AQ terrorist in Iraq trying to kill the defendant and his unit, he may well get a jury to find the "lack of substantial capacity" element.

On the other hand, if the PTSD proof is that Mr. McCarthy by his big mouth set off the defendant's irresistible submerged anger, leading him to wring McCarthy's neck, I expect the jury might be less agreeable (depends on what they thought of Mr. McCarthy). That defense worked in Anatomy of a Murder (the real case was tried in Marquette, MI, with defense counsel a guy who was usually county prosecutor - later sat on the Michigan Supreme Court - had awesome talents with the ladies, so twas said).

(2) If the defendant asserts a defense of insanity in compliance with section 20a of this chapter and the defendant waives his or her right to trial, by jury or by judge, the trial judge, with the approval of the prosecuting attorney, may accept a plea of guilty but mentally ill in lieu of a plea of guilty or a plea of nolo contendere. The judge shall not accept a plea of guilty but mentally ill until, with the defendant's consent, the judge has examined the report or reports prepared in compliance with section 20a of this chapter, the judge has held a hearing on the issue of the defendant's mental illness at which either party may present evidence, and the judge is satisfied that the defendant has proven by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant was mentally ill at the time of the offense to which the plea is entered. The reports shall be made a part of the record of the case.

I can't see why a defendant would plead to guilty but mentally ill; unless the bargain was for outright probation, or a much reduced sentence followed by probation. See section 4 below. E.g., if the crime sentence is life or a long term of years, why not bargain for a set term of years under a pure guilty or nolo plea ?

(3) If a defendant is found guilty but mentally ill or enters a plea to that effect which is accepted by the court, the court shall impose any sentence that could be imposed by law upon a defendant who is convicted of the same offense. If the defendant is committed to the custody of the department of corrections, the defendant shall undergo further evaluation and be given such treatment as is psychiatrically indicated for his or her mental illness or retardation. Treatment may be provided by the department of corrections or by the department of community health as provided by law. Sections 1004 and 1006 of the mental health code, 1974 PA 258, MCL 330.2004 and 330.2006, apply to the discharge of the defendant from a facility of the department of community health to which the defendant has been admitted and to the return of the defendant to the department of corrections for the balance of the defendant's sentence. When a treating facility designated by either the department of corrections or the department of community health discharges the defendant before the expiration of the defendant's sentence, that treating facility shall transmit to the parole board a report on the condition of the defendant that contains the clinical facts, the diagnosis, the course of treatment, the prognosis for the remission of symptoms, the potential for recidivism, the danger of the defendant to himself or herself or to the public, and recommendations for future treatment. If the parole board considers the defendant for parole, the board shall consult with the treating facility at which the defendant is being treated or from which the defendant has been discharged and a comparable report on the condition of the defendant shall be filed with the board. If the defendant is placed on parole, the defendant's treatment shall, upon recommendation of the treating facility, be made a condition of parole. Failure to continue treatment except by agreement with the designated facility and parole board is grounds for revocation of parole.

Here is the key to the statute: sentence for the crime, with mental health evaluation and treatment ancillary to the conviction.

(4) If a defendant who is found guilty but mentally ill is placed on probation under the jurisdiction of the sentencing court as provided by law, the trial judge, upon recommendation of the center for forensic psychiatry, shall make treatment a condition of probation. Reports as specified by the trial judge shall be filed with the probation officer and the sentencing court. Failure to continue treatment, except by agreement with the treating agency and the sentencing court, is grounds for revocation of probation. The period of probation shall not be for less than 5 years and shall not be shortened without receipt and consideration of a forensic psychiatric report by the sentencing court. Treatment shall be provided by an agency of the department of community health or, with the approval of the sentencing court and at individual expense, by private agencies, private physicians, or other mental health personnel. A psychiatric report shall be filed with the probation officer and the sentencing court every 3 months during the period of probation. If a motion on a petition to discontinue probation is made by the defendant, the probation officer shall request a report as specified from the center for forensic psychiatry or any other facility certified by department of community health for the performance of forensic psychiatric evaluation.

This part is a diversion path for a defendant who committed a less serious crime, but has a serious mental illness. This portion of the statute was attacked, but held constitutional.

History: Add. 1975, Act 180, Eff. Aug. 6, 1975 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 245, Eff. May 1, 2002
Constitutionality: The Michigan supreme court found that subsection (4) of this section, governing the grant of probation to guilty but mentally ill persons, does not violate the equal protection and due process clauses of the federal and state constitutions. People v. McCleod, 407 Mich. 632, 288 N.W.2d 909 (1980).

You might want to check on whether your state has such a statute; and, if not, ask your favorite legislator "why not".

[AdamG]

I suspect that this issue is also related to PTSD, or will be.

Troops reportedly popping more painkillers

Troops reportedly popping more painkillers By Gregg Zoroya, USA TODAY WASHINGTON — Narcotic pain-relief prescriptions for injured U.S. troops have jumped from 30,000 a month to 50,000 since the Iraq war began, raising concerns about the drugs' potential abuse and addiction, says a leading Army pain expert.

Find this article at:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...aindrugs_N.htm

[AdamG]

JMM

Thanks for the insightful posts. I intend to follow this via open source and will post any updates that cross my screen.

There are not enough facts in what we know (from the article) to make hasty assumptions. Those facts will develop for those who want to follow the case.
.

True enough. I make my hip-shoot call based on prior experience weeding out half a dozen "Group W Bench" residents from my company prior to deployment.

We seem to take dubious characters to war, simply because the Powers That Be demand to see the right numbers and certain command structures don't want to exert the effort to take the blatant liabilities off their DMDs. At this point, Gideon's self-induced attrition from 22k troops to 300 during his march on the Midianites looks better and better.

*
PS: Hey, looky here!

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10758345

Salazar announced Friday that he had sent a letter to Army Secretary Pete Geren requesting that he personally visit the base and initiate a comprehensive review of all violent acts by Fort Carson soldiers since they served in Iraq or Afghanistan.

The Colorado senator also asked the Army to do several other reviews, including whether soldiers allegedly involved in recent murders had been given criminal or medical waivers to fulfill recruitment quotas.

[120mm]

I suspect that this issue is also related to PTSD, or will be.

Troops reportedly popping more painkillers

Troops reportedly popping more painkillers By Gregg Zoroya, USA TODAY WASHINGTON — Narcotic pain-relief prescriptions for injured U.S. troops have jumped from 30,000 a month to 50,000 since the Iraq war began, raising concerns about the drugs' potential abuse and addiction, says a leading Army pain expert.

Find this article at:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...aindrugs_N.htm

Well, provided that I received a lifetime supply of Valium to treat my vertigo, in theater, without a prescription, I can see where abuses can happen.

[AdamG]

It's not just the Army...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_w...rtured_-2.html

A Brooklyn-raised Marine sergeant and his new bride were tortured and killed execution-style in their California home - allegedly by four other Marines under his command.

Sgt. Jan Pawel Pietrzak, who was raised in Bensonhurst, and his wife, Quiana, were found bound and gagged in the ransacked house, each shot in the head.

*

Charged with murder and other crimes are Pvt. Emrys John, 18, of Maryland; Lance Cpl. Tyrone Miller, 20, of North Carolina; Pvt. Kevin Darnell Cox, 20, of Tennessee, and Pvt. Kesuan Sykes, 21, of California.

Lawyers for the men could not be reached for comment.

Pietrzak's mother said she can't understand how Marines could have committed such a crime.

"Don't the Marines screen out people like this?" she said. "Didn't they know they had murderers under their roof?"

and then -
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_w...oklynra-2.html

They did it for the money.

The four Marines charged with murdering their Brooklyn-raised sergeant and his bride confessed they were looking for an easy score when they burst into the couple's California home with guns drawn, court papers revealed Thursday.

Three of them ratted out Pvt. Emrys John as the triggerman who ended the torture of Sgt. Jan Pawel Pietrzak and his wife, Quiana, by shooting them in the back of their heads.

*

All of the suspects say that Quiana Jenkins-Pietrzak was sexually assaulted, but each says it was the other three who did it, the papers say.

*
On his MySpace page, Miller referred to himself as a "Cripgeneral." Investigators are now checking whether he had ties to the violent Crips street gang.

[Rex Brynen]

Too many stressed soldiers slipping through cracks: report
'Canadian Forces members are strained almost to the breaking point,' says military ombudsman
Last Updated: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 | 11:41 AM ET
CBC News

Some Canadian military personnel who have post-traumatic and operational stress injuries are not getting the care and attention they need, according to a report released Wednesday by the military ombudsman.

While senior military leaders have talked about a strong commitment to deal with post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, and its devastating effects, the commitment hasn't reached down to the community level, interim ombudsman Mary McFadyen said.

There is a lack of care and support for soldiers across the country, she said in the 62-page report.

When one mother said her son was on the verge of committing suicide, she went to his supervising officer in Petawawa, who told her to suck it up, Susan Ormiston of CBC News reported. It's an experience the ombudsman confirmed is happening, based on interviews with 360 people across the country.

The full report can be downloaded from the DND/CF Ombudsman here:

A Long Road to Recovery: Battling Operational Stress Injuries

Second Review of the Department of National Defence and Canadian Forces’ Action on Operational Stress Injuries, December 2008.

[reed11b]

According to one local expert, military stigma attached to mental health plays a big role on getting soldiers in. Want to bet it would still play a big role even if "screenings" were mandatory?
Reed

[120mm]

According to one local expert, military stigma attached to mental health plays a big role on getting soldiers in. Want to bet it would still play a big role even if "screenings" were mandatory?
Reed

Interesting article, and great to see an SWC member get their name in print. Just a few comments, though:

I think most "treatment" for PTSD is over-formalized. To me, sitting around, drinking beer, and telling war stories is valid and useful treatment. It should be THE focus of the Army's treatment effort. "The system" is overly formal, even without going into stigma issues for treatment, and if you enter it, you run the risk of losing your rights. I had PTSD long before it was "cool", and found that my healing started once I met my wife and could finally talk about it to someone. I'm still quite warped, but I've come to quit worrying and learned to accept it.

Second, I've mentioned the dangers earlier of overly focusing on PTSD; Depending on an individual's resistence level, you can talk someone into "getting" PTSD. I've seen entire units go down from faux food poisoning, and seen people with PTSD who never experienced anything more stressful than having to stand in the chow line.

Third, all this publicity is disingenous, imo. The press is all over PTSD and TBI because it makes good sensationalism and plays right into the "Veterans are ticking timebombs" meme. Enough with the damned publicity, already.

And fourth and finally: the professional warriors (who are, I believe, the minority) are NOT in the military "for their health" despite what the hand-wringing panty-wetters like to think. Quit bothering us with your PTSD crap if we reject it. It eats up valuable training time, along with all the other CYA bull-crap that the risk averse are pushing.

Otherwise, appreciate what you're doing, Reed.

[ODB]

Ask many of those I work with and they will claim coming home is their cause, not being in Iraq. It's all the admin bullsh*t that gets us. Reverse SRP, SRP, health assessment surveys pre-deployment and post deployment, terrorism awareness training, unit assessment, safety classes, POSH training, and the list goes on. This is during a 6 month rotation home. At some point these so called experts need to realize they are cause more damage than good. We just want to get back to doing what we knows works, drinking beer and chasing tail. We aren't touchy, feely, sensitive metro males, there are some us out there who still are men. Let's be honest PTSD is the latest and greatest escape clause for many. Hey doc I can't sleep and I have nightmares I want out and I want disability with it, come on........ Don't get me wrong there are legitimate cases but the fraudulent cases outweigh the legitimate ones. So it gets forced down all our throats and causes us an unusual amount of ass pain. Just my perspective on the experts.

[Schmedlap]

It's all the admin bullsh*t that gets us.

I second that and everything else that you wrote. That is why I am now a civilian instead of an Infantry Officer.

A year in Iraq, for me, is no big deal. But for the year that we're back between deployments, when 8 months of that is spent in the field, the other 4 months are pretty valuable. When 2 or 3 out of those 4 are eaten up by what ODB mentioned, that makes for some angry troopers. It also results in some retention issues.

[reed11b]

Don't get me wrong there are legitimate cases but the fraudulent cases outweigh the legitimate ones.

This is the only statement you made that I have issue with. I disagree, though I can see were the perception comes from. The majority of the vets that come into the Vet Center do so way below the radar. They come in on there own time, they adhere to strict confidentiality and do not ask for there records to be shared with the big VA or the DOD. The ones that everybody sees are the loud ones that make a lot of noise, insist on making appointments during duty hours, and they often come from the WTU. Coming from the WTU is not an indicator of faking in itself, but my experience is that the WTU's are something of a poison pill and moral in them goes south very quickly. Very similar in my work with youth in crisis, it would be easy to become jaded and think that most youth do not really need the services they are using (or abusing in this case) because of the very vocal minority that take up for more time and other resources then justified. The reality is that most of the kids using the service need it very badly.
Another reason for some of the questionable PTSD cases is the VA and Army's diagnosis policy. It used to be that a delay in the onset of symptoms was required for a PTSD diagnosis. Now the symptoms only have to last longer then 3 months. Combat Stress readjustment is normal, i.e. more soldiers show the symptomology then not. I personally feel that many of the PTSD diagnosis are really readjustment issues that take a little longer then usual to heal for whatever reason, including the dysfunctional re-deployment screening cycle. If it lasts for a year, but heals minus invasive therapy (EMDR and exposure therapy as opposed to CBT and skills building) it was really readjustment in my mind. Of course I do not speak for the VA so take my opinion for whatever it is worth.
Reed

[ODB]

In today's society where so many people try to justify their existence have we created something out of nothing? I think most of us can agree that war is a life changing experience for most if not all service members. I can tell you how it affected me........I cannot stand admin stuff that has absolutely nothing to with making my ability to take the fight to enemy and come back alive. There has been more screenings and assessments put upon us in recent years than ever before and why? Because some supposed expert somewhere says your not the same person.......well no sh*t, I look at things differently now. If we didn't have the victim mentality in society from the start how many of these people would be better prepared for the realities of war? It is not the Hollywood glory so many think and when they find out the truth they want nothing else to do with it. We have created our own monster and now we must deal with it. Yes I have buddies you have come back mentally unstable, a prime example is 23 year old who did 3 trips in 3 years with a divorce in the middle of it all, losing two team mates, and getting blown up himself. He did not have enough life experience to handle the issues at hand. Only after we got him home and hanging out with us around the bonfire with lots of alcohol did he no longer need meds....he talked about what he was going through with others who had been there in their own experiences. Yes, I am proud to say I belong to an organization that polices it's own and takes care of them. Some shrink who has no clue of what it is like is not going to be able to that. These guys that have legitimate problems need their own guys around them. Now same guy goes to get his VA assessment and is told he needs to prove his injuries are combat related. I guess purple hearts now mean peace time wounds to VA. I have serious issues with the system and will be the first one to tell anyone it's worthless and the experts need to go elsewhere, good units will take care of their own as they have done in the past, when they don't hammer the command for failing their soldiers and quit treating the soldiers as victims. We are an all volunteer force, you signed the contract, sorry the college money is no longer free, sorry you now need to earn it. Then explain why one soldier loses a limb and fights his way back into his job, while the next one is crying poor me?

[reed11b]

Some shrink who has no clue of what it is like is not going to be able to that. These guys that have legitimate problems need their own guys around them. Now same guy goes to get his VA assessment and is told he needs to prove his injuries are combat related.

Vet Center counselors are almost all combat vets. I am a combat vet. Yes, some soldiers readjust w/o therapy, but some do not. Disparaging the men and women who have chosen to serve twice to be available to help you is counter-productive and you are going to succeed in setting me off if you keep up your current rants. It is ok to get help, confidential help from been-there-done-that types that also have educated themselves on how to be a professional counselor, and suggesting that anyone that seeks that help is crybaby i.e.

Then explain why one soldier loses a limb and fights his way back into his job, while the next one is crying poor me?

is complete and total Bravo Sierra and you should be embarrassed to have suggested it, period. That soldier that fought back from losing a limb had a dedicated team of doctors, therapists and medical aides fighting along-side him step for step and soldiers that have psychological wounds deserve the same level of support.
One P.O.ed Reed

[Stevely]

There has been more screenings and assessments put upon us in recent years than ever before and why? Because some supposed expert somewhere says your not the same person.......well no sh*t, I look at things differently now. If we didn't have the victim mentality in society from the start how many of these people would be better prepared for the realities of war?

"Experts" and the therapeutic culture are a curse on our society that is universal, not just within the military. I think it is only to be expected - we are a crazy society that is working furiously cut itself loose from every last mooring in traditional culture, for the sake of "progress", including all those means that human cultures and societies have developed over the millenia to cope with the vicissitudes of life. These experts and their schemes are the result of trying to replace the natural with the unnatural product of ideologies. The society no longer has deep cultural and spiritual resources to fall back on, and thus no longer understands what you've gone through - no longer understands, really, the human condition - and won't admit and can't imagine that anyone else can, thus you and your comrades are subject to this mad, clueless flailing by mental health professionals, grief counselors, and the rest of the lot. It will only get worse. This is the terminus of a highly abstract culture - it can no longer not only tell truth from falsehood, it no longer even has the vocabulary for it.

"Thinking themselves wise, they became fools."

[Rex Brynen]

"Experts" and the therapeutic culture are a curse on our society that is universal, not just within the military. I think it is only to be expected - we are a crazy society that is working furiously cut itself loose from every last mooring in traditional culture, for the sake of "progress", including all those means that human cultures and societies have developed over the millenia to cope with the vicissitudes of life. These experts and their schemes are the result of trying to replace the natural with the unnatural product of ideologies. The society no longer has deep cultural and spiritual resources to fall back on, and thus no longer understands what you've gone through - no longer understands, really, the human condition - and won't admit and can't imagine that anyone else can, thus you and your comrades are subject to this mad, clueless flailing by mental health professionals, grief counselors, and the rest of the lot. It will only get worse. This is the terminus of a highly abstract culture - it can no longer not only tell truth from falsehood, it no longer even has the vocabulary for it.

Having seen a great many people whose lives have been transformed for the better (and, for that matter, lives have been saved) by dedicated mental health professionals, I have to say this picture bears absolutely no resemblance to the society I know.

I don't think that slagging off mental health workers en masse is either appropriate or very useful.

Having said that, I'll leave it there. I don't that SWJ is a particularly appropriate place to fight out culture wars.

[120mm]

Vet Center counselors are almost all combat vets. I am a combat vet. Yes, some soldiers readjust w/o therapy, but some do not. Disparaging the men and women who have chosen to serve twice to be available to help you is counter-productive and you are going to succeed in setting me off if you keep up your current rants. It is ok to get help, confidential help from been-there-done-that types that also have educated themselves on how to be a professional counselor, and suggesting that anyone that seeks that help is crybaby i.e.
is complete and total Bravo Sierra and you should be embarrassed to have suggested it, period. That soldier that fought back from losing a limb had a dedicated team of doctors, therapists and medical aides fighting along-side him step for step and soldiers that have psychological wounds deserve the same level of support.
One P.O.ed Reed

The counselors at the VA near Leavenworth must be veterans of the Indian Army then, since they're definitely not US nationals. And they treat the soldiers like ####, as well.

In my experience, nearly losing a limb, and having an undiagnosed major brain trauma/personality change, I find that recovery is 90% or more on the dude with the wounds. And victims are victims. No matter how much you try to help them, they will always wallow in their own misery.

I think you overestimate the impact you actually have as a counselor. Most of the enthusiastic counselors I have met are the same way. Hyper-inflated ego and unreasonable self-image is probably the most prevalent symptom among medical/mental health personnel.

[120mm]

Having seen a great many people whose lives have been transformed for the better (and, for that matter, lives have been saved) by dedicated mental health professionals, I have to say this picture bears absolutely no resemblance to the society I know.

I don't think that slagging off mental health workers en masse is either appropriate or very useful.

Having said that, I'll leave it there. I don't that SWJ is a particularly appropriate place to fight out culture wars.

I disagree. Addiction to mental health treatments is a real and common malady, which has the additional by-product of providing job security to the same mental health professionals.

I don't see a whole bunch of people who outgrow their therapist. I HAVE encountered some very effective mental health professionals, who are able to help someone "get off their top dead center" and then help themselves "get right". But they are in the minority, in my experience.

[ODB]

My heart brun is with the supposed experts not those who have been there done that and can help. According to most of these so called mental health experts I'm psycho according to their tests (have failed every psych eval I have taken). If you read most of what I was getting at is that as a society we have taken on the victim role instead of accepting responsibility......thus leading into metally weaker individuals who do not know how to handle the situations they face. This leads into my lost limb comment. It is on the individual, you can choose to be the victim or not and it is that victim who everyone sees, not the guy on one leg doing a scuba certification to see if he can still be on a scuba team with one good leg. Guess what he did it. Another personal example is my best friend has had 7 surgeries in 15 months to fix a shattered foot from an IED and is still not fixed. He told his doctors to cut his leg off below the knee so he could at least get back to doing his job. He was the only guy in the vehicle to survive, he is doing fine. This is the nature of the men I work with so yes when I hear some FOBBIT crying about PTSD from sitting on a FOB for a year I tend to be a bit ticked off. Understand the culture I come from and you easily see why this irrates the hell out of us. On the occasion it happens to one of our own we take care of them. We could go back and forth all day long, to get at the heart of issue is that when enough experts tell you something is wrong you begin to believe something is wrong even though there isn't. Awareness at the individual level is key, we know each other better than anyone, we know when someone is not their self, and we help that individual. This is the way to cut through the BS. Yes not everyone is wired the same way to handle everything thrown at them, but there are ways that lead to prevention. Let's look at the kinder gentler Army of today. When soldiers are no longer pushed, stressed mentally and physically are we doing them a disservice or we helping them? I tend to lean to fact that we are providing a disservice. As standards continue to drop more problems will continue to arise.