Are you suggesting that it should? If so, why?Originally Posted by Ranger94
Welcome to the Army.
Is the suggestion here that awards are the only reward? Or the most preferable award? Something else? We generally reward success with evaluations reports, promotions, and desirable duty positions and stations. Even if we get rewards right, knowledge can still be lost.
If 4-Star Generals and Brigade Col. are asking SGTs and SSGs to wage a redefined type of combat then yes I think they should be rewarded.Are you suggesting that it should? If so, why?
Welcome to the Army.
Is the suggestion here that awards are the only reward? Or the most preferable award? Something else? We generally reward success with evaluations reports, promotions, and desirable duty positions and stations. Even if we get rewards right, knowledge can still be lost.
At the same time we were in Khowst Province, two different SF CSMs were in the AO. We did not get a single report of them measuring sideburns. Of course they did Robin Sage and are trained in FID.
The suggestion here is not that awards are the only reward. I present the opinion that senior leaders are training one way and asking soldiers to perform another way in combat. When those same soldiers do well in combat ("well" defined as successfully operating out of 3-24) we then ask the same soldiers to go back to being an MP or 11B or Gun Bunny.
As I understand it, the argument is conduct COIN but maintain traditional, "stay in your lane" MOS specific skills. My argument is MOS specific skills are a baseline and "joint" training now starts at the E5 level and not at the 04 level.
Think combat leadership is being rewarded? Walk around Crystal City and count the lack of combat patches.
It's been over a month, so maybe I need to refresh my memory, but I'm not sure I understand what you are arguing. As I understand it, you assert that we're fighting a "redefined type of combat," whatever that is, and this, I guess, justifies some kind of award?
After that, you completely lost me with the random comments about sideburns, Robin Sage, vague assertion about "senior leaders are training one way and asking soldiers to perform another way," some apparent gulf in skills required by COIN and other ops, and combat patches in Crystal City.
Let me use this analogy, while in a combat zone, as an NCO, I tell a PFC that he has to man a Browning .50cal.you assert that we're fighting a "redefined type of combat," whatever that is, and this, I guess, justifies some kind of award?
We all know this is not a new weapon system. It has been in the US Army inventory for almost 90yrs. But to the new PFC it is a new weapon.
If, as an NCO, I toss the FM at the PFC and say "learn it, oh and tell me what you learned" then the PFC deserves a reward.
There is a major flaw in my argument. With COIN, prior to 3-24 the PFC did not even have an FM.
You guys are smart, that is why I and others come here. But how many 11B2P or 3V read FM90-8 in 1998? 1999? Yet, how many of them "fought" on the "Island" of "Cortina"? The FTX's of the '90 never went enough towards the clean up of some missions.
Going back to my analogy, the PFC went to OSUT and the .50 cal manual existed but the military school did not put it as a priority for training. Does it matter that the manual was available?
Last edited by Ranger94; 07-19-2010 at 04:56 AM.
They aren't necessarily supposed to read those manuals...
The 11Bush - 2s that is, most of those guys shouldn't have been expected to read them. An exceptionally sharp kid might have, good for him...
However, the 11B/19D3-whatevers should have been at least aware of their existence and every 11B4-whatever and every combat arms LT and CPT should have read them. For their Bn Staff Officers and Senior NCOs to not have read them is, IMO, inexcusable.*
It's not Joe's job to read that stuff; it is Joe's job to screw off as much as he can. It IS the job of those other guys to take care of Joe and lead him to do what's necessary. That means making sure he can do what he has to do. That's done by his Honchos using the knowledge they have gained through training and experience -- and reading unassigned but relevant material -- to get him trained. But you know that...
The chain of command was given a job it had not trained for. The Doctrine was available but training wise, it was ignored for 25 years. So you've got a very valid complaint on the fact that 1990s era (and personally, I'd go for 1975-2002...) training Army wide was broadly inadequate -- and the responsibility for that lies at the then COL and above level.
Yeah, the guys in Vernon Parish blew it. So did those around Bicycle Lake. So too did the BCTP guys who trained the Cdrs and Staffs here and there. When victory was declared, they turned off the computers and the lights and no one gave a thought to what came next. Simply put, the Army screwed up, big time...
We do not train entering officers or enlisted people as well as we should. We never have and while I keep hearing noise about improvements in NCO and Officer training and education, I sure don't see many indications of greater tactical competence in open sources.
* Though in fairness, given all the furor over FM 3-24, it is obvious a number of the senior people involved in the production committee of that Great American Novel were not as familiar with the older manuals as one had a right to expect. One almost senses in some cases they started writing their 'new' bible, stumbled across the old one and grudgingly said "I guess we oughta put that in there..."
Okay, so I guess if someone learns something on their own, then they deserve a reward. I further infer that you believe Soldiers are learning things on their own without significant assistance or training from their superiors. Apparently one of those things is COIN, a collective endeavor performed by units, which I guess we're to believe is spontaneously performed without guidance or direction from leaders, or something. And then, this justifies a reward for restraint, or something?
Forgive me if I stop responding.
Yep
When doing an AAR check ego at the door. very respectfully, I am pointing out my perspective based on my training and deployments
Last edited by Ranger94; 07-19-2010 at 05:06 AM.
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