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Old 05-14-2017   #41
OUTLAW 09
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Fighting has gone on all night at a rather high level and is still continuing this morning.....

08:45 #Horlivka: #Zhovanka-#Zaytseve - battle since morning
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Old 05-14-2017   #42
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Russian-backed separatists fired Grad rocket systems 60 times in Donbas last night.

Fire spread through the settlements.

4 civilians killed
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Old 05-14-2017   #43
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Russian supported and financed mercenaries are now using the Aleppo tactic....fo shelling civilians and their residences...

Russia attacked four Ukrainian towns and villages using the terrorist tactic of firing shells & rockets from residential areas
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Old 05-14-2017   #44
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#Gazprom to Zatulin: $2 million per year for subversive activities in #Ukraine
https://informnapalm.org/en/gazprom-...ine-photo/#BTW...

Gazprom is Russia's major soft power money giver and used to drive their political war with the West....
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Old 05-14-2017   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
There have been a few posts on the attitude of Ukrainians towards Russia and why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".

Twenty years ago I visited western Ukraine, centred around Lviv or Lvov, which had been Polish until 1939. I have three abiding memories of talking to our hots, professional architects. One was a remark when we stopped at a war memorial, with a plaque for WW2 from 1939-1947; I was puzzled at the post-1945 extension and was told about the Ukrainian resistance to the return of Soviet rule.

Then we visited a small museum in a medium sized villa in Lvov, which had a display of civic or state funerals after independence (in 1991) and I asked what they were. One host explained the funerals were for victims of the Soviet state when Lvov became Soviet again in July 1944. Adding many victims were not reclaimed by their families who feared the Soviets / Russians would return one day exacting revenge.

A glimpse into the 1944 history comes in:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_uprising

Finally at our final dinner a host asked our group (all "Westerners") 'Not to forget us, we are West Europeans'. I never imagined the Ukraine was part of Western Europe, but they did.

The Ukraine's modern history is bloody and rightly they fear / feared an end to their independence after 1991.
Azor..what you apparently failed to see with Maidan was a birth of the Ukrainian identity which they created themselves during the Maidan and that is driving them today...the national pride in standing up to power is sometimes a far stronger feeling than all the nationalism of say a Trump....

Maidan was not about a single age group but cut across all ages and levels of education...1,762 dead UAF later they still are defending Maidan...and not even the US can effectively counter Russian information and cyber warfare...Ukraine is doing a good job of it though....

The support of the general public is still very much there...with every burial of a UAF soldier as he is carried to where ever he is being buried the local people line the roads on bended knees in respect..that does not even happen on the US...

https://youtu.be/UUnuQ998Gq8
Ukrainian

https://youtu.be/D8HqRH5cHPo
Ukrainian

https://youtu.be/Bd05t-d2GIY
EN

https://youtu.be/CT7hTVMrwQo
EN

At Maidan a Ukrainian national identity was born and the drive to become of a "European" was achieved........and Russia lost forever Ukraine.....

That Russian loss will be sealed forever with the EU visa freedom on 1 JUN 2017....

That was not the case of most of the other Eastern European countries that broke away after 1991....BTW none of these countries have made the strongest set of reform laws in just under three years..that Ukraine has even in the face of continued corruption and war....not even the Baltics...

AND Russia is ever so slowly heading towards a "Maidan"...and Putin knows it.....

Signs of the times at Moscow rally against mass demolitions: "When they came for me..." and "Stop stealing."

Russian libertarians protest against state overreach and for property rights at rally against mass demolitions in Moscow.
BUT WAIT...the US Do not Tread on Me flag might be used in Russian propaganda as proof of this being a CIA led demo and "regime change"....

Thousands of people now chanting for Moscow mayor @MosSobyanin's resignation. And the political opposition had nothing to do with this

Guess who´s back from eye treatment in Barcelona and visiting the rally against demolotion of 8000 appartment blocs in Moscow.

"Muscovites are not deer."
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Old 05-14-2017   #46
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Russian improved T-72B3 tanks spotted in military convoy near Ukrainian border

http://defence-blog.com/army/russian...n-border.html#
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Old 05-14-2017   #47
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US Global Hawk #UAV #drone @ 51,000ft over Ukraine approaching the Russian border
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Old 05-14-2017   #48
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Russia has started a new battle, attacking north from occupied Horlivka towards free Zaitseve.
https://twitter.com/thunderbolt1488/...1443787997184#
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Old 05-14-2017   #49
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Vodyane-#Sakhanka area near #Mariupol - battle ongoing, incl. with heavy artillery.

Ukraine reports 4 WIAs amid 61 enemy attacks in last day
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Old 05-14-2017   #50
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Default To David RE: Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
There have been a few posts on the attitude of Ukrainians towards Russia and why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".

Twenty years ago I visited western Ukraine, centred around Lviv or Lvov, which had been Polish until 1939. I have three abiding memories of talking to our hots, professional architects. One was a remark when we stopped at a war memorial, with a plaque for WW2 from 1939-1947; I was puzzled at the post-1945 extension and was told about the Ukrainian resistance to the return of Soviet rule.

Then we visited a small museum in a medium sized villa in Lvov, which had a display of civic or state funerals after independence (in 1991) and I asked what they were. One host explained the funerals were for victims of the Soviet state when Lvov became Soviet again in July 1944. Adding many victims were not reclaimed by their families who feared the Soviets / Russians would return one day exacting revenge.

A glimpse into the 1944 history comes in:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_uprising

Finally at our final dinner a host asked our group (all "Westerners") 'Not to forget us, we are West Europeans'. I never imagined the Ukraine was part of Western Europe, but they did.

The Ukraine's modern history is bloody and rightly they fear / feared an end to their independence after 1991.
David,

I must interject here.

In 1939, Lwow was inhabited primarily by ethnic Poles and Jews, with ethnic Ukrainians in the surrounding countryside. The Ukrainians resented Polish rule and mainly welcomed the Soviet invasion in 1939, even assisting the NKVD in deporting ethnic Poles considered threatening to Soviet rule. Yet by 1941 the Ukrainians had learned that Stalin was less than interested in Ukrainian self-determination, and had turned his attention to Ukrainian nationalists. Thus, the Germans found a warm welcome in the Summer of 1941. Ethnic Ukrainians in Lwow captured Jewish women, stripped them naked, raped them and paraded them through the streets before murdering them.

During World War II, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and its militant arm the Ukrainian Insurgent Army went on a rampage after Operation Barbarossa began, murdering and torturing ethnic Poles and Jews. Even up to the end of 1953, the UIA had killed far more Jewish and Polish civilians than German and Soviet soldiers combined.

The uprising you speak of was by the Polish Home Army (AK) in 1944, which was involved in clashes with the UIA as part of the protection of Polish villages in Galicia and Volhynia.

The Ukrainians are as bad about re-writing history in their favor as Stalin was, who had no problem counting all deaths in eastern Poland or in Soviet GULags as victims of Germany.

Note that during the Cossack uprising in the late 17th Century - Ukraine's other "heroic" act - 80-90% of the Cossack's victims were Jewish civilians, not Polish soldiers.

I am proud of what the Ukrainians did in late 2013 and early 2014, but it remains to be seen what price they want to pay to wrest true independence from Russia, or whether they were enticed by subsidies and potential remittances.
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Old 05-15-2017   #51
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Default To Outlaw 09 RE: Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
Azor...

…you truly do not understand…
…you are in the US…
…NOR have you lived within…
…and this is where you do not know anything as you never dealt with…
…So now do your homework...
My understanding of special forces operators is that they are able to shoot accurately in battle, despite the physiological conditions that affect the gross and fine motor skills of most soldiers. Yet your ad hominem is wide off the mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
…both Ukraine and Russia were actually vying for visa free travel to EU...

Russia was on track to get it until they shot themselves in the foot...with Crimea now that will never happen.

So are you trying to sell me Russia wanted EU remittances as well??
Apparently the Russians decided that association with the EU wasn’t worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
Anybody who understands the EU joining process knows that it takes roughly 10 years and a country must fulfil 21 points before even being invited to join and Ukraine knows this..they wanted the association agreement due to open and free trade and trade preferences AND they really wanted visa free travel....

WHY...for two reasons...they really do like to travel to EU without having to be restricted to two months, X amount of money in the bank, medical coverage and lining up to get the visa from any EU Embassy...and then paying the fees for it.

BUT more importantly it symbolizes a clear and concise break from Russia and the former Soviet Union....

This issue of visa free travel is an interesting thing which you tend to overlook...
But were the Ukrainians who rejected the EAEU and Russian incentives in favor of association with the EU fully aware of the process and its conditions?

Given the transfer payments from some EU members to others, remittances from EU member citizens and illegal migrants alike, Greek profligacy and the eventual bailout, and the reluctant back-stopping of the PIGS economies, Ukrainians can be forgiven if they believed that the EU’s streets were paved with gold, and the ten years and twenty-one points were more a nudge-nudge wink-wink type of arrangement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
…now the IT abilities of young Ukrainians taught IT in Ukraine is head and shoulders above much of what we see currently in the US...they can match US coders step for step...
Yawn. You aren’t in the U.S., so what are you “currently seeing”, exactly? The Russians and Chinese are excellent coders as well. Who was it that created Olympic Games/Stuxnet? Who was it that infiltrated the Chinese Communist Party’s meetings via malware? Did the Ukrainians paralyze Russian infrastructure or was it the other way around?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
You really are off on your figures...check the latest export numbers and check the massive investments coming into the farming sector from US companies...BTW check the last years corn harvest and how much of it have been destroyed as it was contaminated by black fungus...AND if NAFTA was not in place the US corn market would be a deep deep black hole and many farmers would be out of business...Grain is what the Ukrainians produce not corn which is largely what the US has shifted to as well as soybeans...
Then provide some figures and sources, including links. All of the GDP per capita PPP, constant dollars and overall growth is publicly available. Ukraine’s economy is a basket case, and has only seen growth as part of a recovery from 2014. Ukraine’s grain hasn’t been strategic since the 1950s. Khrushchev had to buy wheat from Canada, remember, when the “Virgin Lands” initiative failed, but I’m sure you’ll have an excuse for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
You still do not get it...I am enamored with any country...political party and or individual who actively pushes back against Russian political warfare…do you not agree...and it that is the goal so be it...
I haven’t had the ‘I support whatever country is taking on Russia’ attitude since I was 18-years old. I regret that Operation Unthinkable wasn’t launched, but I can understand why it wasn’t. In hindsight, were Patton and MacArthur so wrong?

In 2008, I was rooting for the Georgians to bleed the Russians white, rather than embarrass themselves, which they did (fortunately, the Iraqi Army surpassed their record in 2014). It was further embarrassing to learn that Saakashvili was the aggressor and that the Georgians started off committing clear war crimes. The lessons of that war were obvious: SAMs, SAMs, ATGMs, and more SAMs. But instead of spackling Poland and the Baltic republics with Patriots we have the useless BMD/EPAA to protect Central Europe from Iran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
…Maidan was a birth of the Ukrainian identity which they created themselves during the Maidan and that is driving them today...the national pride in standing up to power is sometimes a far stronger feeling than all the nationalism of say a Trump...

Maidan was not about a single age group but cut across all ages and levels of education...1,762 dead UAF later they still are defending Maidan...and not even the US can effectively counter Russian information and cyber warfare...Ukraine is doing a good job of it though...The support of the general public is still very much there...with every burial of a UAF soldier as he is carried to where ever he is being buried the local people line the roads on bended knees in respect..that does not even happen on the US... At Maidan a Ukrainian national identity was born and the drive to become of a "European" was achieved...and Russia lost forever Ukraine...
What of the nationalism of Khmelnitsky or Bandera? The latter was closer to Hitler than Franco or Mussolini. What about Trump again? Why the attachment to America’s Christina Kirchner?

The Orange Revolution collapsed into corruption, and Yuschenko awarded “Hero of Ukraine” status to Bandera and his fellow criminals before he left power. My concerns about Ukrainian nationalism developing in dark ways are neither unjustified nor unreasonable given Ukraine’s history, and the inability or unwillingness of Ukrainian nationalists to come to terms with it. At present it is too early to tell in what direction it will develop.

Despite the Ukrainian nationalists’ historical antipathy for Poles and Jews, it was in precisely those parts of Ukraine under Polish rule and with large Jewish populations, that the Ukrainian nation – culturally, linguistically and religiously – was able to establish itself. Perhaps Bandera and his admirers should “inform” themselves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
That was not the case of most of the other Eastern European countries that broke away after 1991....BTW none of these countries have made the strongest set of reform laws in just under three years..that Ukraine has even in the face of continued corruption and war....not even the Baltics...
The Poles, East Germans, Czechs, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians and Romanians used non-violent resistance to win their freedom from the local Communists and the Russians. The Ukrainians were merely given independence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
AND Russia is ever so slowly heading towards a "Maidan"...and Putin knows it...
Galeotti and Goble are agreed that if Putin is ousted and replaced by true Russian democracy, it will most probably be an illiberal one. Don't get your hopes up. Yet unlike Ukraine today, a civil war in Russia will throw into doubt the effective C2 of the world's largest, if not most effective, nuclear deterrent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
Azor I posted at the very beginning over two years ago a long series of Ukrainian companies that Russia wanted to takeover when their so called "separatists" arrived in Donbass from Crimea.....I notice that many commentators have forgotten that list and it was a majority of Ukrainian companies working in the defense sector supplying Russia..

BUT right now the Trump WH and Trump himself are actually enabling Russian political warfare against the US and Europe and that my friend is unacceptable...
Ukraine’s industries in Donbas were dependent upon Russian energy inputs and the Russian market. They are completely noncompetitive when separated from the Russian military-industrial complex.

How is Trump enabling Russia? Arguably Obama did much more to enable Russia, and even Bush did nothing when Russia occupied parts of Georgia.

You gave up your U.S. citizenship, right? Paid the tens of thousands of euros, right? You no longer pay taxes to the IRS, right? Shouldn’t you be focusing on more important matters, such as taking in some migrants and enabling Merkel? Or demanding that Poland proscribe the PiS? Or bring up the status of Kaliningrad?
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Old 05-15-2017   #52
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Default Seeking help from history

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azor View Post
David,

I must interject here.

In 1939, Lwow was inhabited primarily by ethnic Poles and Jews, with ethnic Ukrainians in the surrounding countryside. The Ukrainians resented Polish rule and mainly welcomed the Soviet invasion in 1939, even assisting the NKVD in deporting ethnic Poles considered threatening to Soviet rule. Yet by 1941 the Ukrainians had learned that Stalin was less than interested in Ukrainian self-determination, and had turned his attention to Ukrainian nationalists. Thus, the Germans found a warm welcome in the Summer of 1941. Ethnic Ukrainians in Lwow captured Jewish women, stripped them naked, raped them and paraded them through the streets before murdering them.

During World War II, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and its militant arm the Ukrainian Insurgent Army went on a rampage after Operation Barbarossa began, murdering and torturing ethnic Poles and Jews. Even up to the end of 1953, the UIA had killed far more Jewish and Polish civilians than German and Soviet soldiers combined.

The uprising you speak of was by the Polish Home Army (AK) in 1944, which was involved in clashes with the UIA as part of the protection of Polish villages in Galicia and Volhynia.

The Ukrainians are as bad about re-writing history in their favor as Stalin was, who had no problem counting all deaths in eastern Poland or in Soviet Gulags as victims of Germany.

Note that during the Cossack uprising in the late 17th Century - Ukraine's other "heroic" act - 80-90% of the Cossack's victims were Jewish civilians, not Polish soldiers.

I am proud of what the Ukrainians did in late 2013 and early 2014, but it remains to be seen what price they want to pay to wrest true independence from Russia, or whether they were enticed by subsidies and potential remittances.
Azor,

I am aware of much of the history you cite and I would recommend, possibly again, this excellent history book: 'Borderland: A Journey through the history of Ukraine' by Anna Reid, pub. 1997. A second edition was published in 2015, with good reviews here:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Borderland-.../dp/1780229275

All those who hosted us were Ukrainians and some undoubtedly had been Communist Party members, probably to ensure professional advancement.

I offer my memories as they indicate why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".
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Old 05-15-2017   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azor View Post
David,

I must interject here.

In 1939, Lwow was inhabited primarily by ethnic Poles and Jews, with ethnic Ukrainians in the surrounding countryside. The Ukrainians resented Polish rule and mainly welcomed the Soviet invasion in 1939, even assisting the NKVD in deporting ethnic Poles considered threatening to Soviet rule. Yet by 1941 the Ukrainians had learned that Stalin was less than interested in Ukrainian self-determination, and had turned his attention to Ukrainian nationalists. Thus, the Germans found a warm welcome in the Summer of 1941. Ethnic Ukrainians in Lwow captured Jewish women, stripped them naked, raped them and paraded them through the streets before murdering them.

During World War II, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and its militant arm the Ukrainian Insurgent Army went on a rampage after Operation Barbarossa began, murdering and torturing ethnic Poles and Jews. Even up to the end of 1953, the UIA had killed far more Jewish and Polish civilians than German and Soviet soldiers combined.

The uprising you speak of was by the Polish Home Army (AK) in 1944, which was involved in clashes with the UIA as part of the protection of Polish villages in Galicia and Volhynia.

The Ukrainians are as bad about re-writing history in their favor as Stalin was, who had no problem counting all deaths in eastern Poland or in Soviet GULags as victims of Germany.

Note that during the Cossack uprising in the late 17th Century - Ukraine's other "heroic" act - 80-90% of the Cossack's victims were Jewish civilians, not Polish soldiers.

I am proud of what the Ukrainians did in late 2013 and early 2014, but it remains to be seen what price they want to pay to wrest true independence from Russia, or whether they were enticed by subsidies and potential remittances.
To quote the Ukrainian President...with visa free travel we are now no longer tied to russia....
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Old 05-15-2017   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
Azor,

I am aware of much of the history you cite and I would recommend, possibly again, this excellent history book: 'Borderland: A Journey through the history of Ukraine' by Anna Reid, pub. 1997. A second edition was published in 2015, with good reviews here:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Borderland-.../dp/1780229275

All those who hosted us were Ukrainians and some undoubtedly had been Communist Party members, probably to ensure professional advancement.

I offer my memories as they indicate why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".
There is nothing wrong in being a former Communist Party member....that was how one survived in the former East Bloc....as no one ever thought the Wall would come down....
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Old 05-15-2017   #55
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April 2014, Remains of a Ukrainian military convoy ambushed by Russian-backed separatists
https://lecturis.nl/en/product/war-in-ukraine/
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Old 05-15-2017   #56
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Leader Of 1953 Soviet Gulag Uprising Dies In Ukraine At 90
https://www.rferl.org/a/28489267.html

RU MP Leonid Kalashnikov (KPRF): If the Donbas conflict escalates and Ukraine switches to active mil actions,
RU may recognize 'republics'


RU MP #Kobzon seeks to create a "tourism claster" in "LDNR"
http://www.rbc.ru/politics/15/05/201...79476ba235e512

Has he forgotten that the Donbas is a part of Ukraine?

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Old 05-15-2017   #57
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Default To David RE: Ukraine Part Deux

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
Azor,

I am aware of much of the history you cite and I would recommend, possibly again, this excellent history book: 'Borderland: A Journey through the history of Ukraine' by Anna Reid, pub. 1997. A second edition was published in 2015, with good reviews here:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Borderland-.../dp/1780229275

All those who hosted us were Ukrainians and some undoubtedly had been Communist Party members, probably to ensure professional advancement.

I offer my memories as they indicate why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".
Thank you for the recommendation, David. In return, I would recommend Snyder’s “Bloodlands”. I will say that despite mentioning Ukrainian anti-Semitism, Reid devotes more time to excusing mass murders committed by the Cossacks and UIA than detailing the crimes themselves.

However, the fact is that the Ukrainians of the Lwow/Lvov/Lviv area collaborated with the NKVD in 1939 and the Germans from 1941 on (the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police were established before the UIA), and only fought the Soviets from 1944 on. Ethnic Ukrainians did suffer somewhat under Soviet rule in 1939-1941, but overall the Soviets were anti-Polish and the executions and enslavement reflect this bias. The UIA engaged in some sporadic clashes with the Germans, but there was overlapping membership between the UIA and various auxiliary and SS units, and a rough and unspoken truce for most of the war.

Therefore, their World War II memorial is less than factual. I remain puzzled why you associated the Lwow Uprising by the AK with ethnic Ukrainians, given that it was by ethnic Poles.

The criminals of the OUN and UIA are still lionized in Galicia and Volhynia today, and the black-and-red flag has been prominent in pro-EU/anti-Russian protests in Kiev. How is lionizing war criminals in any way Western, considering what the West meted out to Germany, Japan and Serbia? There is not even an attempt here to dissociate with these crimes, as the French and Italians have tried i.e. every Frenchman or Italian was part of the resistance, etc.

Now, we can say that Ukrainians are ignorant of their history or suffering collective trauma from Stalin and Hitler, but the starting point has to be the truth.

Nor is this problem limited to Ukraine. The Belgians, Danish and Dutch had far more collaborators and volunteers than resisters to the Germans, and the French and Norwegians are roughly even.

Last edited by Azor; 05-15-2017 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 05-15-2017   #58
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Worth watching. Good ppl @usosce have compiled factual video on Russia's manufactured conflict in #Ukraine #Donbass
https://www.facebook.com/osce.usmiss...8585541490350/

49 attacks on Ukrainian positions yesterday, 6 soldiers were wounded

Donetsk, 9.30 pm - A battle is heard for more than 2 hours now. Heavy artillery and all as usual. #Minsk?

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Old 05-15-2017   #59
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In spite of the blockade against Donbas, Ukraine's GDP rose by 2.4% yoy in Q1 2017. Ukraine is ready for takeoff.
epravda.com.ua/rus/news/2017/05/15/624837/ …
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Old 05-15-2017   #60
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In spite of the blockade against Donbas, Ukraine's GDP rose by 2.4% yoy in Q1 2017. Ukraine is ready for takeoff.
epravda.com.ua/rus/news/2017/05/15/624837/ …
The IMF 2017 estimates for Ukraine's GDP aren't particularly exciting. Ukrainian growth for 2016-2017 is ahead of Belarus and Russia's, but that isn't saying much, especially as Belarus has comparable international reserves and a much higher GDP per capita and a much lower debt-to-GDP ratio.

I've struggled to find a country in Europe worse off than the Ukraine is, although Moldova comes to mind...
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