Understanding Indian Insurgencies

[Ray]

(contd)

It's an accurate description of what has become a pervasive trend in much of the world: widespread belief, often absolute and unquestioning, in propositions that are supported by neither logic nor evidence. It's a fascinating trend, often supported by the internet, which allows believers to construct a closed circle of superficially credible websites that tell them what they want to hear.

Actually, it is not the internet alone which could be the purveyor of motivated information. Govts, individuals, think tanks et all are guilty.

The unfortunate part is that one has to believe them or else one has to have the finances, organisation, authority and reach to penetrate every action taking place in the world to sift that wheat from the chaff. But then, even that would not be believed by the cynics and the motivate to sell an agenda!

I have no doubt that US-based NGOs fund antinuclear groups in India and in many other places. The same happens in the indigenous rights movement, the environmental movement, the animal rights movement, the feminist movement, etc. We routinely get foreign activists blundering into local movements and trying to offer support. They're often annoying and genrally utterly naive, but they are in no way the cutting edge of some generically "Western" conspiracy to undercut the Philippines.

The backing of NGOs around the world is not US centric.

It is a worldwide phenomenon pursued by all Govts.

I believe it is legal in the US to have lobbies to promote agendas of companies, political views and of foreign nations. These lobbies naturally do not have truth as a part of their agenda! And yet they can influence the US Congress and Govt and decide, if you will, the fate of many countries, like it or not!

Isn't that how life is?

And from this you deduce that protests in India are funded by the US Government? Isn't it more likely that money is coming from groups like Greenpeace or Friends of the Earth. groups that the US Government wouldn't touch with a barge pole? That's what these groups do, they are quite open about it and quite proud of it.

That does not mean that these groups would directly fund Maoist rebels. Some of the individuals in them might want to, but the groups themselves would be very careful: direct support of violent movements would, if exposed, dramatically reduce their ability to raise funds.

The idea that the US Government is funding Maoist rebels is too absurd to countenance. If we heard that the CIA was funding a covert hit squad to whack Maoist sympathizers, that might be more believable.

One would be surprised if the US’ agenda could be furthering radical Communist organisations as the Maoist.

I fail to see from where you deduce that.

Your interesting deduction does leave me baffled.

If you are meaning that the US is backing radical forces to topple State Govts that are not too favourable to the US' point of view, you maybe right.

But then, you alone would have such information. I confess, I don’t!

The nuclear plant is not in a Maoist infested area in case you are not aware.

Would you not drag in the US when none have mentioned it so. It may get you brownie points in this US forum, but then it is far from what I have stated

Protest do get widespread support in Western countries: that's why NGOs are able to raise the money they raise. This does not mean the support is institutional or that it comes from government. Many of the people involved are deeply suspicious of government and see it as an antagonist, along with the much loathed bogeyman of "the corporations".

You view is too simplistic.

I am not aware if you have worked in the govt or even in the Intelligence apparatus.

If you haven’t, then you are entitled to that view.

Unfortunately, that is not how the world rotates in the geopolitical environment.

Many of the same groups hold the same kind of protests against nuclear moves in their own countries. These groups act on their own, generally oppose their own governments, raise substantial cash from sympathizers, and are globally interconnected.

Globally interconnected is the keyword.

It is the business of any Govt to penetrate every organisation and ensure that they do not upset the national agenda.

You must work with Homeland Security so that we can have a more constructive debate.

Or else you will be another Nehru living in your ideal dream world.

I hope I am not sounding like Carl!

Is there any evidence of government support, or are you simply assuming that all foreign NGOs are government-funded?

My assumption is not material.

Note what I have appended about the USSR.

Is that evidence or mere assumptions?

Internet you say is a purveyor of bogus information.

In short, you are indicating that anything said, but for what you say , is mere figments of imagination based on links from a bogus instrument – Internet.

Sadly, I have not penetrated every organisation in the world to obtain ‘authentic’ information, and even if I did so and stated it here, you would declare it as bogus.

Damned if you do and damned if you don’t!

Of course it has its own agenda. That doesn't make it a tool of the US Government or of "the West". Where I live Amnesty International and similar groups are believed in military circles to be tools of international communism. Same complaints: they complain about government abuses but ignore those of the rebels, etc.

Why bring in the US in everything?

Because this a US forum and it will agitate the members?

Not only the US, we too feel that the Amnesty International is a total fraud!

Governments do actually do that, all over the world, on a regular basis.

That is the cardinal point that Pollyannas and egotists who feel that Life has not recognised their talent, feel.

It reminds me of Shedon of the serial Big Bang Theory, an American sitcom created by Chuck Lorre and Bill Prady.

Sheldon is a great one of being the sole soul who has the answer to everything and others are but idiots!

Has anyone actually been accused of funding insurgency? Who, and to what extent? All I've seen is a claim that Indian NGOs diverted foreign funds to support protests. That's by no means incredible, but it's a far cry from funding insurgency.

I've also expressed curiosity about where Indian insurgent movements get their money, especially if it's true that the fighters are fighting for pecuniary benefit. Claims that the insurgency is directly funded by foreign NGOs or governments, though, have to be supported by some kind of evidence or at least some kind of logic. There's simply no reason for the US or any western government to fund Maoist insurgents in India.

Has anyone accused anyone of funding and giving support infrastructure to Maoists? You possibly live in the back of nowhere.

Even if you don’t subscribe for international newspaper, you can always try them on line (even though you have a poor impression of the Internet).

Again you bring in the US.

Do you think I am that daft to feel that the US is backing the Maoists?

However, you may see this:

http://www.freebinayaksen.org/?p=1112

Binayak Sen has been passing on Maoist literature and is a backer of the Maoists!

Since you are not aware the Maoists are getting their act together with Chinese support.

Self-sustaining insurgencies have existed, especially in their early stages. Foreign funding or ideological support can advance an insurgency, but they can't create one, not unless the domestic conditions exist. Governments would be well advised to address the domestic conditions instead of blaming foreign subversion.

The best example of Insurgency and Popular Revolution is the Chinese Communist Movement.

You may not know but in 1933, Bo Gu and Otto Braun arrived from the USSR, reorganize the Red Army, and take control of Party affairs. They defeat four encirclement campaigns.

1934: October 16, breakout of 130,000 soldiers and civilians led by Bo Gu and Otto Braun, beginning the Long March.

Otto Braun? Funny Chinese name!

You are a pro China person. But you sure need to read more about China!

So people pick up guns and start shooting at vastly superior forces just because some foreigner wants them to? I don't think so, not without some pretty powerful motivation on a local, personal level.

You seem to be influenced by the college shootings in the US expecting it to become revolutions!

Rather simplistic a thought.

I gave you the laundry list that requires organising a movement/ insurgency.

Apparently, it suits you to obfuscate and drive everything to irrelevance.

I thank my stars you have not brought in the US even out here to play to the gallery!

What you're not recognizing is that "Western" encompasses huge variety. There's the "West" of the tea party and the west of the Occupy movements, the west of Exxon and the west of Greenpeace, the west of the IMF and of the anti-globalization protestors and all stripes in between. Governments juggle and dance to try to gain support and deflect opposition from as many parties as possible. Different factions compete aggressively for followers, all over the world, and link with the like-minded all over the world to advance their own agendas.

It's impossible to speak of a unitary "Western" agenda because no such thing exists.

Please check those video - What is the West.

[Dayuhan]

The unfortunate part is that one has to believe them or else one has to have the finances, organisation, authority and reach to penetrate every action taking place in the world to sift that wheat from the chaff. But then, even that would not be believed by the cynics and the motivate to sell an agenda!

One doesn't have to believe anything. One must be skeptical of everything, and review the evidence, reasoning, and basic common sense behind every proposition one reads. Otherwise one is likely to fall for wacko conspiracy theories.

The nuclear plant is not in a Maoist infested area in case you are not aware.

So why is support for anti-nuclear rallies being equated with suipport for Maoists?

This started out as a discussion of where Maoists get their money. Somehow funding for anti-nuclear rallies came into the picture. I'm not sure how that happened, and I'm not sure what the connection is between anti-nuclear rallies and Maoists.

Would you not drag in the US when none have mentioned it so.

The articles you cited refer to "US NGOs" and accuse them of trying to advance a "Western agenda". The term "Western" is so often used as a proxy for "US" that I may have confused something.

Again, this would be simpler if you would tell us which NGOs are suspected of aiding Maoist rebellion, and which Governments you think are supporting them.

Internet you say is a purveyor of bogus information.

In short, you are indicating that anything said, but for what you say , is mere figments of imagination based on links from a bogus instrument – Internet.

The internet is not a purveyor of anything. It is a vehicle for multiple purveyors. Since anyone can publish anything, everything there must be taken with skepticism. A proposition not supported by convincing evidence and effective reasoning is bogus no matter where you read it. You're just most likely, these days, to read such propositions on the internet because of the ease of publication.

Sadly, I have not penetrated every organisation in the world to obtain ‘authentic’ information, and even if I did so and stated it here, you would declare it as bogus.

Only in the absence of convincing evidence and effective reasoning.

Not only the US, we too feel that the Amnesty International is a total fraud!

When I say "here" I don't mean the US. Either way, while AI certainly has an agenda, that doesn't mean they are agents of some nefarious conspiracy. it just means they have an agenda. Most organizations do.

Has anyone accused anyone of funding and giving support infrastructure to Maoists? You possibly live in the back of nowhere.

This whole conversation started with the question of who is funding the Maoists. NGOs and foreign governments were cited. I'm still trying to find out which ones. When did any other topic come into the picture?

Since you are not aware the Maoists are getting their act together with Chinese support.

Finally, progress! What form is this support taking, and in what quantity is it arriving?

Is there a proposition being made that the Chinese are using western NGOs to support Maoists in India? I ask because it's really not clear. If so, what NGOs?

The best example of Insurgency and Popular Revolution is the Chinese Communist Movement.

You may not know but in 1933, Bo Gu and Otto Braun arrived from the USSR, reorganize the Red Army, and take control of Party affairs. They defeat four encirclement campaigns.

There were a few others involved... Mao, Chu Teh, etc.

1934: October 16, breakout of 130,000 soldiers and civilians led by Bo Gu and Otto Braun, beginning the Long March.

Otto Braun? Funny Chinese name!

You are a pro China person. But you sure need to read more about China!

Does failure to indulge in hysterical Sinophobia make one a "pro-China person"? These definitions seem to change all the time...

Certainly Chiang Kai-Shek wanted to believe that all his problems were due to foreign subversion, and wanted even more to get the Americans to believe it. His allies in the US tried hard to advance that theory. In the end, though, it doesn't hold up: Chiang's problem wasn't foreigners, it was his own incompetence and inability to govern. That's not to say no foreigners were involved; there were a number of foreigners there. The point is that while the revolution may have received foreign assistance, it was in no way a foreign creation. Of course other powers will try to manipulate a revolution to advance their own interests. That doesn't mean they created the revolution or that the revolution couldn't exist without them.

Again, blaming foreigners for revolution is the first choice of the government that doesn't want to admit to its own role in producing revolution.

You seem to be influenced by the college shootings in the US expecting it to become revolutions!

The point was that a foreign power can not simply wave a wand and conjure up insurgency where the preconditions to insurgency - factors within the power of government to address - are not present. Governments need to spend less energy wailing about foreign subversion and more energy resolving those preconditions. Find and resolve the grievances and foreign subversion is a seed cast upon stone.