Air Power in the New COIN Era

[Entropy]

However consider that an armor guy would probably be one of the first to try his hand at driving them by remote considering what happens if one actually gets hit by something which can hurt it.

Also consider that from their perspective if it stops moving then you get out and you "are " infantry. For a grunt whats the comparison to that scenario for the pilot?

Not trying to play devil's advocate so much as simply trying to get perspective on it.

No, you're right. Both the Air Force and Navy are limited by their environments and depend on their machines not only to fight, but for basic human survival. But I should point out that although a tanker has the potential to be infantry, but does the average tanker have the training and mentality to do more good than harm if they find themselves on foot?

Additionally, I hinted above that big changes are coming in the Air Force and the service could be fundamentally different in 50 years - perhaps unrecognizable. I think the current leadership, despite their old-school mentality, may sense it as well which may explain why the AF has such a woody for "space" and "cyberspace." On the latter, I suspect the AF's effort here will prove them either be fools or visionaries. In either event, it will be interesting to see what happens!

[120mm]

No, you're right. Both the Air Force and Navy are limited by their environments and depend on their machines not only to fight, but for basic human survival. But I should point out that although a tanker has the potential to be infantry, but does the average tanker have the training and mentality to do more good than harm if they find themselves on foot?

Ummm, some of the best fighters I've ever met were armor types. They tend to have extremely good awareness of how to apply sightlines and fires, as well as bringing a different paradigm to the infantry combat framework.

[Cavguy]

But I should point out that although a tanker has the potential to be infantry, but does the average tanker have the training and mentality to do more good than harm if they find themselves on foot?

<sigh>

OIF has shown that the tankers (and artillerymen, and engineers) can convert into quite adequate infantry if need be. The cost is that they degrade their primary MOS sills. At a basic level, tactics are tactics. Infantry platoon maneuver isn't conceptually that much different than armor or cav maneuver. Leadership is leadership. Tactics for the environment can be quickly learned.

Even more so, their leaders are often exceptional COIN fighters. As has been repeatedly noted, Armor officers have sheparded the most significant successes in Iraq, and developed tactics and operational art that became models for the rest of the country.

Peruse some of the Armor/Mech in COIN threads for your answer. Look for anything on Tal Afar, Ramadi, Kerbala, or Najaf. Google the branches of H.R. McMaster, Sean MacFarland, John Nagl, and Peter Monsoor.

[Entropy]

<sigh>

Thanks for setting me straight. I made some dated erroneous assumptions based on the tales a couple of old school armor guys I know. My apologies on that.

[Rob Thornton]

Man - seems like we retake this hill every so often.

Re-reading Secretary Gate's speech at Maxwell (and worth comparing to his speech at USMA, and Secretary Geren's speech at the Marshall Awards), I don't think he was worried too much about the procurement end and hardware - he was targeting grey matter.

I don't discount the $$$s - but I point out that the materiel piece is the end product. If we let the product define and constrain us, the enemy gets the advantage at some point. I think most of the hardware pieces I've seen in action are mostly suitable to us and our range of requirements - the piece that is sometimes lacking is our ability to get past our constrained thinking. On the ground - its people that make it work, that innovate, adapt, cooperate, empathize and understand the operational environment - breaking free from service cultures and prejudices. I've got many an Army 19D, Logistician and MI bubba, many an airman (who flew ISR, EW, and CAS missions), many a seaman (the naval EWOs & logisticians) to thank. All of these guys broke the mold - they discarded the mantra "that's not my job" and adopted "support the mission".

If we get the "grey matter" piece right - the rest will follow.

Best, Rob

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

Man - seems like we retake this hill every so often.

Weigley's The American Way of War?

[Ken White]

"Before we get too involved in who can pee the farthest"

said 120mm. He also said

"I put it down in the "even if it was forced upon those services, it was the natural result of ignoring/neglecting the future of conflict since 1989" category at the very least."

causing me to wonder if he was talking about DoD, the Army, the USAF or anyone else other than C. Krulak...

He also added

"...And the Army is not blameless, here. In fact, you won't finding me defending The Army as an institution."

I can agree with that...

Selil said:

"Oh, you don't have to believe me because the Air Force said it all first."

I think that's a dated document and the AF has fixed most of that. Last time the kid was in Afghanistan, he had a JTAC with his Platoon frequently and said the CAS was way better than his previous two tours in both theaters. I believe they're flooding the zone with JTACs and that many of the RAND recommendations have been or are being implemented

Umar Al-Mokhtar said:

"...more like better focus on the Nation's task at hand rather than advocating for future capabilities that have no application to the present situation."

Sounds good but I'm not sure the Marines are ready to dump the EAV, the Army to dump NLOS or the Navy ready to stop building Submarines. I suspect the respective Bosses realize that there's more going on in the world right now than the two big theaters; that it takes an excessively long time to develop and field new stuff and that there's no certainty in predicting war. We have the luxury to focus on the here and now; they do not.

He also said:

"USAF CAS is really good but Marine CAS is better (just as USAF air superiority has the edge over the Marines), so part of staying relevant to the fight is to learn from those who do it for a living."

True, good point. It also makes the point -- correctly -- that CAS is the primary mission of Marine Tac Air while it is a secondary mission for the USAF. AS, IMO, it should be and stay...

I agree with Umar on the C17s but realize that Congress is a part of the problem with that. As is Lockheed Martin.

I tend to agree with Hacksaw.

[ODB]

I've been getting caught up on this one. Notice a lot of AF bashing, just wanted to give them a thanks. They have gotten my brothers and me outta a lot of hairy situations. When your running black on ammo and A/C are stacked overhead to bail you out there is no greater feeling. Gotta love em' for what they do. How they get there I honestly don't care, as long as they are there, which they have been when they were needed most!!!