Contractors Doing Combat Service Support is a Bad, Bad Idea

[Uboat509]

As for the FOB dining system, there has historically been morale issues between the line and the rear elements, in terms of what each gets vs. what each does. Be aware of that.

Bitching about the REMFs is a cherished, time honored CA tradition. It has been going on as long as there have been REMFs. The guys who do the fighting are always going to complain about the guys who do the supporting, no matter what. It is not going to go away. I can remember being in the field as a young soldier and complaining because we thought that the REMFs were keeping the "good" t-rats and giving us the bad ones (in retrospect I have no idea what the difference between a good and a bad t-rat is). There is an old saying in the Army, "If joe ain't bitchin', joe ain't happy."

Furthermore, to the extent that contractors take care of the food, you will always have a problem supporting those who are in dangerous locations. Getting food to the guys on the front line is always going to be perilous. Who is more likely to take on that responsibility -- contractors or other soldiers/Marines?

Can you point to any circumstance when a front line guys didn't eat because of contractors? I don't know about the Marines but there are plenty of Army log convoys traveling all over Iraq. If there is a place where the contractors won't go because it is too dangerous then we have military log guys to carry supply to those areas. Just because we have contractors carrying a lot of the stuff does not mean that our log don't carry any. Presumably it is the same with the Marines.

No, that's not what I have said. I have argued that the priority should start with the line folks, with those outside the wire and work backwards. If you can only manage to get the guys in peril one hot meal a day, don't go overboard with those behind the lines.

As Cav pointed out we are generally supporting the frontline guys as well as circumstances and a facilities allow. Some of the COPs I have been on don't have enough room for a decent sized latrine, never mind an MKT and a mess section.

I think it bears considering whether troops might not be better suited to the tasks, particularly as you get closer to the fight. How you want to fill those billets creates another set of questions.

As I stated above, troops are still doing this. Contractors have augmented but not replaced troops, with some exceptions.


As per SOP Ken cuts to the heart of the whole argument.

Seems to me to be a lot of "If I were God..." and that valid points made by folks who were there are sort of overlooked. The most egregious overlooking being in the area of how (to include methods and times), even if you dispense with contractors and the troops do the CSS jobs, you are going to feed the guys outside the wire in the COPs the same meals you are able to feed in the base camps. That doesn't even get into how you're going to retain, in a volunteer force, those Fobbits and / or REMFs if you forced them to eat like the line guys.

No one has yet come up with a viable alternative that will meet the needs and goals of the nation, the army -- or of today's troops who are very emphatically not Spartans, Roman Legionaires, Revolutionary Continentals or even post Civil War troopies. I'll wait for that.

SFC W

[Ski]

Ken - my biggest gripe with the chow halls is that the food we were given was beyond the pale in comparison with what the locals ate. They probably had no idea what we were eating - and the seafood was off limits to most of the Afghans anyway- but there was a serious disconnect in my reality box when I was sitting in a mess hall in Afghanistan getting better food than what I would get at home.

Understand the spartan way is not for all and that the meals were intended to boost morale. Just seems like a case of cognitive dissonance to me.

[Sargent]

Uboat wrote:

Can you point to any circumstance when a front line guys didn't eat because of contractors? I don't know about the Marines but there are plenty of Army log convoys traveling all over Iraq. If there is a place where the contractors won't go because it is too dangerous then we have military log guys to carry supply to those areas. Just because we have contractors carrying a lot of the stuff does not mean that our log don't carry any. Presumably it is the same with the Marines.

I can send you specific details in a private message, but I don't want to get into it on the open list.

But generally, I understand full well that, in combat, front line logistics are a bear. I know that at times supply and support can be severely constrained, and troops must make do with very little. I also know how powerful the urge to give the troops as much as possible can be -- so much so that commanders have at times unnecessarily risked the lives of their troops to do so. I do not, however, have much tolerance for a system that can leave some out in the cold when but a few miles away guys are eating ice cream -- all the while, the contractor is still paid. That's just ridiculous.

Now it's your turn. Explain for me and Ski how the sort of quality of life efforts being made on behalf of the vast majority of Americans deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan is not harming our COIN effort. Can you justify generators being run non-stop to keep the lobsters and ice cream on ice while most Iraqis are still without a reliable electrical system? How do you propose for the Iraqi Army to learn how to DIY their own logistics at the battalion level when they have no model from which to learn?

Regards,
Jill

[Ken White]

...I do not, however, have much tolerance for a system that can leave some out in the cold when but a few miles away guys are eating ice cream -- all the while, the contractor is still paid. That's just ridiculous.

The guys out in the heat in OTOH may well want Ice Cream -- unlike you, they understand why they can't have it (as has been repeatedly explained by several others above) and they don't get too wrapped around the axle about luck of the draw REMFs eating better (as has also been repeatedly stated).

Now it's your turn. Explain for me and Ski how the sort of quality of life efforts being made on behalf of the vast majority of Americans deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan is not harming our COIN effort...

Good try. Hard to prove a negative.

...Can you justify generators being run non-stop to keep the lobsters and ice cream on ice while most Iraqis are still without a reliable electrical system?

Sure. Those generators are running lights, computers, defensive systems and hospitals -- and the vaccines, serum and blood the treatment facilities need. The lobsters and ice cream are only a microscopically small part of the mass of food it takes to feed the troops. Most of that food is cheap stringy contract beef, pork and chicken plus vegetables. Most of it also doesn't taste that great, the steak and lobster can be tough and stringy too but at least they make up for Chili Mac and Roasted Chicken.

The Iraqis have more electricity now than they had in 2002 and they know it. They are unlikely to ever have the relative luxury the US does and takes with it where ever it goes.That may offend some but it's a fact of life and has been true in every war we've been in during my lifetime. I doubt it will change. Even if we get a Spartan for CJCS...

How do you propose for the Iraqi Army to learn how to DIY their own logistics at the battalion level when they have no model from which to learn?

One should expect them to resurrect the previous logistic system they had, copied from the British and that worked for them through a pretty big war in the 1980-88. That's a fact of history. They'll take on a few US modifications but it will basically be an Iraqi log system as it should be.

We do BTW, have log systems at Bn level to include cooks. It's cheaper and easier to use the contract mess to cook huge quantities and the Bn picks up and distributes it to the Outposts (not the contractor, the Bn and the units in that Bn).

Doesn't have to be your way, Ski's way or my way to work...

And I'm still waiting for this:

"No one has yet come up with a viable alternative that will meet the needs and goals of the nation, the army -- or of today's troops who are very emphatically not Spartans, Roman Legionaires, Revolutionary Continentals or even post Civil War troopies. I'll wait for that."

[Schmedlap]

Can you point to any circumstance when a front line guys didn't eat because of contractors?

There is no such case for one very simple fact: contractors do not fill out the LOGSTAT. The Company XO does. Had my company run out of food when I was an XO, assuming that I were not relieved or that I did not get throttled by my CO and BN XO, then I doubt that anybody would have taken me seriously if I attempted to blame it on a contractor. Even if "front line" folks were getting food cooked, delivered, and served by contractors, there would still be no excuse. MRE's have an NSN and they're abundant. There are pallets of them all over Iraq. Jot down MRE x 96 BX on your LOGSTAT and even a support platoon that is half asleep and has 8 deadlined vehicles can get you 2 pallets of MREs by tomorrow. I'll trade you my orange poundcake for your raspberry applesauce.

[Sargent]

Ken White wrote:

One should expect them to resurrect the previous logistic system they had, copied from the British and that worked for them through a pretty big war in the 1980-88. That's a fact of history. They'll take on a few US modifications but it will basically be an Iraqi log system as it should be.

This is a most bizarre comment given the number of threads and comments on strengthening our advisory capability. According to your logic, there is no need for the advisors, because the Iraqis had an army that could fight -- all they need to do is resurrect the previous operational capability they had, copied from [and often educated by] the British and that had worked for them through a pretty big war in 1980-88. That's a fact of history as well.

Otherwise, if it is believed that the Iraqis need help with the trigger pulling, then it must be accepted that they will need help with the other stuff, because we ought to realize it's much easier to build up a good fighting capability than a good logistics capability.

Jill

[Ken White]

...According to your logic, there is no need for the advisors, because the Iraqis had an army that could fight -- all they need to do is resurrect the previous operational capability they had, copied from [and often educated by] the British and that had worked for them through a pretty big war in 1980-88. That's a fact of history as well.

I'll just repeat this part:"...They'll take on a few US modifications but it will basically be an Iraqi log system as it should be."

Don't agree that building up a good fighting capability is all that much easier than building the Log capability -- but I certainly acknowledge that the Log piece is not easy. All of which has little to do with US practice and capabilities...

[Surferbeetle]

the Italian Army fascinated me when I was a young soldier; red wine, real pasta, and naps for lunch out in the brush of the Po River Valley and cappuccino and pasticcini's for afternoon breaks in hills and mountains of the Veneto region (apparently there are mobile versions of the cappuccino machine). I would always mentally compare and contrast what I had read about the history of the Romans with what I observed in modern times.

In general my take on things is that 'lighter is righter'. That outlook helps to keep me mentally and physically sharper out in the field and it helps with building rapport with the local populace; they are in fact very aware of how we fight and live.

As an 'Economics' data-point the 2008 Pocket World in Figures published by the Economist notes that 49.1% of the US population is employed, 29.3% of the Syrian population is employed, and 33.5% of the Turkish population is employed. The percentages for Afghanistan, Jordan, Iraq & Iran are not given and the Cayman Islands is listed as number one with 68.9% of the populace employed. 'Global Competitiveness' rankings were built on 259 different criteria, with the US being listed as number one.

Tooth to tail ratios over the years and over various campaigns for different armies would be interesting. Does anybody have any insights?

Just started in on this Rand study on US Forces (OP 23 The Other End of the Spear: The Tooth to-Tail Ratio (T3R) in Modern Military Operations)...

McGrath’s study finds that the tooth-to-tail ratio, among types of deployed US forces, has steadily declined since World War II, just as the nature of warfare itself has changed. At the same time, the percentage of deployed forces devoted to logistics functions and to base and life support functions have both increased, especially with the advent of the large-scale of use of civilian contractors.

[120mm]

I can remember being in the field as a young soldier and complaining because we thought that the REMFs were keeping the "good" t-rats and giving us the bad ones (in retrospect I have no idea what the difference between a good and a bad t-rat is)

Oh c'mon, man! You know the "good" t-rat is the one you skipped, and the "bad" t-rat is the one you ate 45 minutes ago, and now you are writhing in the turret floor in agony, having explosive involuntary bowel movements.

But at least that was my experience circa 1987-91.

[Schmedlap]

I just saw this pic at Michael J. Totten's blog and I immediately thought of the weapons repair shops at the FOBs in Iraq...