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Thread: The Col. Gentile collection and debate

  1. #221
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    To my mind there never was a COIN v Something else debate. I can't speak for COL Gentile, but I don't think anyone has ever spoken against COIN. They spoken about biasing training and resources so heavily towards COIN (Security Operations) that Combat Operations skills and resources suffer.

    Add to that the perversion of the "Security mission" into a "nation building mission" and I think you have still think there is a lot left unresolved.
    Wilf,

    I've stated this about ten times on other similar threads but it bears repeating to your observations.

    Much of what COL G is saying is true, but what I am about to say is true as well -

    Our TRAINING and OPERATIONAL forces are near 100% focused on COIN/SO/SFA. That is because the Army is fully committed to OIF and OEF for at least the next 2 years. It is irresponsible not to train them for the environments they are directly heading to.

    Our LEADER DEVELOPMENT and EDUCATION has not significantly changed. Tweaked, but not changed. You can find numerous observations here on SWJ and on BCKS commenting about that our schoolhouses are generally focused on HIC.

    I have a paper which will be published in a few months outlining the whole case, but the bottom line is that COIN is not currently mandated or integrated as a subject of military professional education. The educational system is a greater threat because right now it leads us to a repeat of our 1973-2003 educational deficit for this spectrum of war.

    So in a sense, Gian is right, but so are many of the COIN crowd in stating that the institution has not changed for the long term. As soon as we have non-deploying combat brigades, HIC skills will resurrect.

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    Anybody else find irony in the fact that "antiwar.com" is defending MCO?

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    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    Haven't we had this discussion before? Did we learn anything new?

    Just thinking that some of the SWC discussion recently has been running in circles. Seems like we need a new COL Gentile to come in here and at least challenge the two-sided orthodoxy (COIN vs. MCO) in a unique and stimulating way other than saying we just need to do both.
    Maybe you should take a stab at it...

    I look at it from the historical standpoint, and it's discouraging to note that the bi-polar orthodoxy has existed in American military history more or less from the beginning. It's also discouraging to note that many truly adaptable leaders within the army have been historically ignored or marginalized in many cases (I'm thinking mainly of the post-Civil War period, which was a great testing ground to see who could make the transition from MCO to what was effectively COIN, although there are other periods that certainly deserve study).

    One good first step would involve overhauling the personnel system. Until we scrap that draft-age relic I'd say we're stuck tilting at the same windmills to at least some degree.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    One good first step would involve overhauling the personnel system. Until we scrap that draft-age relic I'd say we're stuck tilting at the same windmills to at least some degree.
    Thank you, thank you...

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    Default At Risk to Rank and Pay ~

    "Large portions (not all) of the US COIN-club approach is "history free." They know it exists, but ignore the bits they want to invent and change the bits they need as evidence. What is more a great many of the COIN clubs' assertions about the future, past and present are wonderfully evidence free. "
    (WF Owen)

    -maybe then that's to say the COIN principle of talent being gleaned from anywhere regardless of rank is either a myth or incapable of being implemented without fracturing the chain of command. How much spontaneity can there be in a combat zone? MikeF asserts there are no human terrain teams, only people. If true, it is a two edged sword, applicable to both camps. What price is paid for spontaneity? What is the reward? The reflection of history shows a lot of dead bodies stemming from fractures in the COC. I don't have a clue as to how much at the small unit level has to 'go up' before there is movement on the part of the small unit in either theatre.

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    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    ...but who are the anti-COIN crowd? No one I know says "we don't do COIN." What I'm against is the "nation building, armed social work," stuff. Securing a population is warfare. It is based in fighting skill.
    Sorry but the United States military does much more than HIC. It is the primary operational response force within the United States during times of disaster (read the national response framework). The United States military is the primary agency for large scale pandemic/civil disturbance/etc. The United States military has a seat at every table where a disaster or incident of national significance occurs. This is including the fires raging in California right this minute. Oh, and since they are basically the same force sure you can say National Guard, but sorry that differential is eroding.

    The United States military does much more than HIC we just seem to get wedded to our own opinions to quickly. A lot of that stuff looks like nation building/civil support to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    Our LEADER DEVELOPMENT and EDUCATION has not significantly changed. Tweaked, but not changed. You can find numerous observations here on SWJ and on BCKS commenting about that our schoolhouses are generally focused on HIC.

    I'm currently a student at the Field Artillery Captain's Career Course.

    Last week, I was tasked to give a class on The Mobile Defense (division level operation).

    This week, I called for Fire (with ICM i/e) on a BMP-1 in the Guardfist.

    HIC is alive and well here at Fort Sill. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that; but you are correct, sir.

    However, tomorrow we start on chapters 1-4 in FM 3-24. Our first COIN class since we started two months ago.
    Last edited by jkm_101_fso; 05-08-2009 at 04:36 AM.
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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    SWJ and on BCKS commenting about that our schoolhouses are generally focused on HIC.

    I have a paper which will be published in a few months outlining the whole case, but the bottom line is that COIN is not currently mandated or integrated as a subject of military professional education. The educational system is a greater threat because right now it leads us to a repeat of our 1973-2003 educational deficit for this spectrum of war.

    So in a sense, Gian is right, but so are many of the COIN crowd in stating that the institution has not changed for the long term. As soon as we have non-deploying combat brigades, HIC skills will resurrect.
    Cav mate, thanks and I do get this.

    I have no dog in this fight, except as a critic of the abuse of history and military thought, and your concern about the education system is clear and valid.

    However, what would concern me is if COIN (The Security Mission) was deemed to a separate or special area requiring some special insight or education.

    I submit it is not, and I further submit that the COIN-club are pushing that it is.

    Everything we know about War and Conflict flows seamlessly between the combat mission and the security mission. They are one and the same, or two sides of the same coin (pardon the pun).
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Sorry but the United States military does much more than HIC. It is the primary operational response force within the United States during times of disaster (read the national response framework). The United States military is the primary agency for large scale pandemic/civil disturbance/etc. The United States military has a seat at every table where a disaster or incident of national significance occurs. This is including the fires raging in California right this minute. Oh, and since they are basically the same force sure you can say National Guard, but sorry that differential is eroding.

    The United States military does much more than HIC we just seem to get wedded to our own opinions to quickly. A lot of that stuff looks like nation building/civil support to me.
    I agree with all that. Same is true of almost all NATO armies.

    Providing trained bodies of manpower to aid the civil authority requires very little training if any, so armies don't train to do it. - and sometimes it provides good training.

    That is all completely different from going to a far foreign land and having an army build schools, churches/mosques and hospitals, as part of a political activity aimed at creating a government friendly to yours..

    - and while war is a political act, those parts of it which are NOT demonstrably about creating exploiting or supporting the application or threatened application of violence, are not (or should not be) a military mission.

    .... and yes sometimes you have to do it because your government lacks the political will to ensure that the right people do it.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Default A couple of comments...

    Quote Originally Posted by goesh View Post
    "Large portions (not all) of the US COIN-club approach is "history free." They know it exists, but ignore the bits they want to invent and change the bits they need as evidence. What is more a great many of the COIN clubs' assertions about the future, past and present are wonderfully evidence free. "
    (WF Owen)

    -maybe then that's to say the COIN principle of talent being gleaned from anywhere regardless of rank is either a myth or incapable of being implemented without fracturing the chain of command. How much spontaneity can there be in a combat zone? MikeF asserts there are no human terrain teams, only people. If true, it is a two edged sword, applicable to both camps. What price is paid for spontaneity? What is the reward? The reflection of history shows a lot of dead bodies stemming from fractures in the COC. I don't have a clue as to how much at the small unit level has to 'go up' before there is movement on the part of the small unit in either theatre.

    1. Any "COIN" lessons learned in Iraq should have a astrix next to them, just like a Barry Bonds homerun record. Good lessons, but you just don't want to confuse them with truly understanding COIN, or contributing to truly understanding COIN

    2. History is indeed critical to understanding COIN, but anyone who limits that study to just the insurgencies of the past 100 years or so won't draw a full perspective. In fact, anyone who just studies conflicts over thousands of years won't have a true perspective. COIN is about governance and human dynamics, and the conflict aspect of it is just the one very blaring, but small slice that we focus on. Look deeper to understand the root causes, and through that, not the study of tactics used to "defeat" insurgents will one find the true keys to putting to rest an insurgency.

    3. Some Empires die in a blaze of glory with grand conventional fights. Others, like the British Empire, die a death of a thousand cuts, through a series of lost COIN campaigns due largely to the misconception that military might and the ability to exert ones will on another means anything in COIN.

    4. Do study history, but make it as comprehensive as you can, or the lessons you draw may be false ones.
    Robert C. Jones
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    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso View Post
    I'm currently a student at the Field Artillery Captain's Career Course.

    Last week, I was tasked to give a class on The Mobile Defense (division level operation).

    This week, I called for Fire (with ICM i/e) on a BMP-1 in the Guardfist.

    HIC is alive and well here at Fort Sill. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that; but you are correct, sir.

    However, tomorrow we start on chapters 1-4 in FM 3-24. Our first COIN class since we started two months ago.
    Become the very best artilleryman you can possibly be first, because if asked to support COIN operations someday the speed and accuracy of how well you can do that will be far more important than how well you understand the process that went into developing the target that you are shooting at.

    That said, never limit your own professional development by the limits of your profession. As a former Artilleryman who spent most of his conventional career in the Infantry, I can tell you, that most artillerymen just don't understand maneuver, but more dangerously, think that they do. I suspect many will walk out of Ft Sill thinking they understand COIN. Understand your role in COIN and that you don't fully understand the nuances of it and you will do fine. Study on your own to be as capable as possible. Or, do like I did and go straight from Sill to Bragg, I walked of the stage at Sill as the honor grad, and then went straight to selection and never looked back. That knowledge has served me well over the years.

    The Field Artillery is facing hard times these days, but someday we will need it again in spades, and we'll need an artillery that can once again reign as the greatest killer on the battlefield. Don't lose that. Don't let your profession lose that.
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    The Field Artillery is facing hard times these days, but someday we will need it again in spades, and we'll need an artillery that can once again reign as the greatest killer on the battlefield. Don't lose that. Don't let your profession lose that.
    If you spray painted that mothers head-stone, I'd still buy you a beer. Well said Sir.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    That is all completely different from going to a far foreign land and having an army build schools, churches/mosques and hospitals, as part of a political activity aimed at creating a government friendly to yours..

    - and while war is a political act, those parts of it which are NOT demonstrably about creating exploiting or supporting the application or threatened application of violence, are not (or should not be) a military mission.
    The United States Navy has been involved in substantial missions to our southern neighbors with the primary goal being medical care to communities that have none or very little. The mission "Operation Comfort" is a very soft power mission, from what the LACC communities have said it is very successful. The same ships that have medical facilities are escorted by ships that could topple regimes in seconds.

    I think the idea of COIN/soft power/stability is very much a part of the American way of doing business. "Speak softly carry a big stick" whether true or not is still part of the American narrative. It is when we walk away from that idea that polarization and schizophrenia of political process starts.

    I have a very controversial hypothesis (everybody tells me I'm wrong then offers me medication), I believe that the cold war was a long aberration of American politics with moments of lucidity. America doesn't do the "World Police" role very well, domestically doesn't like it, and it is fed by corporate needs more than political requirements.

    If it wasn't for the cold war Israel would never have gotten the support it got, same for the Shah of Iran, Norriega, and any of dozens of other regimes. I think, though have no ability, knowledge, or capacity to prove, that what we are seeing is the break down of the cold war mindset. It just appears or seems that much of the LIC and HIC discussion isn't about COIN, but is about a fundamental Kuhn type paradigm shift in American political military presence.

    American's see themselves like Canadians, act often like Germans, sympathize with the French, and mope about their mistakes like the British, while worrying about the Russians.

    Meanwhile the Chinese build five more carriers and triple the size of their navy.
    Sam Liles
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    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    I have a very controversial hypothesis (everybody tells me I'm wrong then offers me medication), I believe that the cold war was a long aberration of American politics with moments of lucidity. America doesn't do the "World Police" role very well, domestically doesn't like it, and it is fed by corporate needs more than political requirements.

    If it wasn't for the cold war Israel would never have gotten the support it got, same for the Shah of Iran, Norriega, and any of dozens of other regimes. I think, though have no ability, knowledge, or capacity to prove, that what we are seeing is the break down of the cold war mindset. It just appears or seems that much of the LIC and HIC discussion isn't about COIN, but is about a fundamental Kuhn type paradigm shift in American political military presence.
    No controversy here, actually. The Cold War WAS an aberration in terms of American policy. A careful reading of just military history shows this. The US has always had an internal focus, with a few flailings outside our borders, until the end of World War II.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

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    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair
    The US has always had an internal focus, with a few flailings outside our borders, until the end of World War II.
    Robert Kagan made a convincing counter-argument.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    Become the very best artilleryman you can possibly be first, because if asked to support COIN operations someday the speed and accuracy of how well you can do that will be far more important than how well you understand the process that went into developing the target that you are shooting at.

    That said, never limit your own professional development by the limits of your profession. As a former Artilleryman who spent most of his conventional career in the Infantry, I can tell you, that most artillerymen just don't understand maneuver, but more dangerously, think that they do. I suspect many will walk out of Ft Sill thinking they understand COIN. Understand your role in COIN and that you don't fully understand the nuances of it and you will do fine. Study on your own to be as capable as possible. Or, do like I did and go straight from Sill to Bragg, I walked of the stage at Sill as the honor grad, and then went straight to selection and never looked back. That knowledge has served me well over the years.

    The Field Artillery is facing hard times these days, but someday we will need it again in spades, and we'll need an artillery that can once again reign as the greatest killer on the battlefield. Don't lose that. Don't let your profession lose that.
    Sir,
    I appreciate the advice and Prof Dev. To say that my artillery skills were degraded when I arrived here would be an understatement. I was very glad to refresh on gunnery and FS. In fact, the schoolhouse is implementing a "reset" block dedicated to correct degraded artillery skills for junior officers in CCC. It added a month to CCC, but I think it's probably worth it. More importantly, they are concentrating on teaching us "how" to train our redlegs when we get back to the force. I also think we are slowly moving away from "cram for this, take the test and then forget it" mentality.

    There are plenty of folks here that think they are COIN experts. But mainly it's students. The instructors are a bit antiquated, just because they have not been to theater lately; not their fault. As mentioned, the culture has changed in the school somewhat to: "Here is a method of doing things and here some examples; but it's up to YOU to make decisions." I am glad this change has occured.

    What the CCC doesn't teach, I try to make up for by hanging out on here and reading as much as I can. It is apparent that the FA is having somewhat of an identity crisis. We've picked up IO, EW and are concentrating on precision munitions to stay relevant. But you are right, we will be needed someday again. And contrary to popular belief we ARE shooting in AFG and a little bit in Iraq.

    Funny story, I tried to access SWC on the computers in the schoolhouse library and the site was blocked. I marched down to the S-6 dudes and demanded they unblock this site. I was kind of disappointed, because that means that of all the Captains and LTs (and field grades) that have come through Snow Hall at some point, no one was interested enough to access SWC during their downtime at school. But the block was lifted, thankfully. I've tried to spread the word to my classmates about SWC.

    Oddly, when assignments came down last week, there were NO slots for Bragg, Campbell or Lewis. Needless to say, getting back to the light world will be pretty competitive, but I'll do my best. Thanks again,

    Jake
    Sir, what the hell are we doing?

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    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    I didn't consider Kagan's argument especially convincing, actually. Laden with ideological postures, certainly.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

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    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    How then is the narrative of American isolationism reconciled with the country's history of expansionism?
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    How then is the narrative of American isolationism reconciled with the country's history of expansionism?
    Fredrick Jackson Turner explains that pretty well. Manifest destiny being only part of the American experience versus the Europeans experience. As an example much of American expansionism was purchased (Louisiana Purchase, Alaska), or brought in under treaty (Texas, Samoa, USVI), or acts from responses to acts of war (Philippines). Yes I'm being very general. However, the expansion characteristics were very different than European.

    Just don't ask an American Indian about this.

    Talking with my wife (who schools me on FJ Turner often or I wouldn't have a clue).. Europe has a tendency to identify America by what they see on the East Coast (e.g. New York or Miami). Asia has a tendency to identify America with what they see on the West Coast (e.g. LA, San Fran, Seattle). Americans as citizens have a tendency to regionalize their politics (e.g. Texas). The result is a heterogenous mixture of politics that can create behavior that outsiders consider contradictory yet is quite consistent.

    It is interesting that Europeans expand by conquering and holding. America is unique in that we gave back the Philippines, gave back Panama, Puerto Rico and Samoa are one vote from being separate national entities. Contrast that to Europe's experience in Africa and other places.

    And, yes let me add I know I am far afield from my own area of study and base much of this on the few dozen books I've read on the topic. I think the idea is consistent with the historical evidence but as you said Kagan and others engage in a substantive counter narrative. I know I don't have their credentials but this idea of American isolationism and the aberration of the cold war seems to make more sense than American imperialism and world policing. I know I don't have the intellectual evidence to prove my case. Others might I don't know.
    Sam Liles
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    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Selil,

    I agree that the Cold War was an 'aberration' in American history, but with a slightly different take. I reject the idea was isolationist -- we regularly and vigorously pursued expansion abroad at the expense of a number of different peoples and countries. But I would agree that the Cold War represented a shift from non-participation (neutrality) in European-dominated politics to direct intervention and eventually mastery (or at least a semblance of it) of foreign politics.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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