Understanding Indian Insurgencies

[blueblood]

Missing the point, I think. Once tribal people are educated, to they become more receptive to externally imposed "development" - meaning dams, mines, logging, etc - or less?

I ask because I live in one of the best educated truly "tribal" areas in the world... and people here go crazy militant at the first mention of a dam or a mine. I suspect that while education might weaken a movement like the Naxalites, it's likely to dramatically strengthen the kind of protest that Medha Patkar is known for.

Alright, no dams and no mines. What about power plants, cotton mills and steel plants? How do you plan to employ them? If your answer is a agriculture then it's a wrong one. Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal.

Education and urbanization will not only weaken this movement, it will kill the ideology. As I said, no such thing as caste and creed exists in urban India. It's a bane and it exists in rural and backward parts of this nation.

The likes of Medha Patkar are here to stay and they will stay for an unknown period. In the land of Gandhi, she is breaking no rules by protesting peacefully.

[Ray]

Just to keep the records straight, even the Indian army when combating terrorists do not use artillery, armour or air force.

It is obvious that the paramilitary follows the same and what is more they don't have these.

It is mere journalistic sensationalism to give the impression that they are 'in the know' and wish to show that they understand the military better than the readers.

In fact, in the COIN areas, artillery, armour, RCL guns, MMGs, 81mm Mortars etc are all mothballed!

[Ken White]

In fact, in the COIN areas, artillery, armour, RCL guns, MMGs, 81mm Mortars etc are all mothballed!

That is very wise.

Tools available will always be used where they should not be unless troops are truly superbly trained -- an expensive and thus understandably rare case in any Army.

If some standard tools aren't available, then better thinking and tactics are necessary -- and will generally appear...

[Dayuhan]

Alright, no dams and no mines. What about power plants, cotton mills and steel plants? How do you plan to employ them? If your answer is a agriculture then it's a wrong one. Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal.

I agree that "Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal". Education may not necessarily lead to docile acceptance of whatever the faraway bureaucrats decide is the right way, though... and people will fight the government if they believe, accurately or not, that government is a threat to them and their way of life.

I don't think "you" should plan to employ "them". That sort of paternalistic thinking is rarely effective. I'd say provide education and infrastructure and let them sort it out. They might surprise you.

Just to keep the records straight, even the Indian army when combating terrorists do not use artillery, armour or air force.

Do you think this would change if the insurgents were stronger, better organized, better armed, and in general more of a threat? Are any of the Indian insurgencies really perceived as a threat to the state, or are they more peripheral matters of a level that can be handled by police work?

[Ray]

Do you think this would change if the insurgents were stronger, better organized, better armed, and in general more of a threat? Are any of the Indian insurgencies really perceived as a threat to the state, or are they more peripheral matters of a level that can be handled by police work?

I don't think so.

It has been the practice ever since the start of insurgency in India, immediately after Independence.

Our police is inept.

It is only the Army that is organised to take on insurgencies.

[Backwards Observer]

Our police is inept.

It is only the Army that is organised to take on insurgencies.

Ray, are the mass graves recently unearthed in Kashmir an example of police ineptness, or is there a more pedestrian explanation? What's your take on this?

Unmarked graves give up their shameful secrets

Every village has stories of men and boys taken from their homes and never seen again, writes Ben Doherty in northern Kashmir.

The police bring the bodies. In the day or night they bring them, wrapped loosely in blankets or in the clothes they wore.

''The bodies come in very bad condition,'' Nizar Ahmed Mir tells the Herald through an interpreter, standing on the steep slopes of the Shaheed cemetery at the end of a narrow dirt road.

''They are bloody, some are in handcuffs, the clothing is torn. Most have been shot in the face, or the face has been damaged, so they cannot be identified. We don't know who they are, we are just told to bury them.''

Unmarked graves give up their shameful secret - Sydney Morning Herald - Nov 12, 2011.

[Backwards Observer]

Actually, Ray, never mind. I just read the comments section of the Foreign Policy Article, What Lies Beneath: Kashmir's Mass Graves Come To Light (Sept 29, 2011). I'm going to go ahead and guess this is somewhat of an emotionally charged issue. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need a drink.

Secondly,yes we support the government and the army in the actions taken in JK,whole heatedly.They get what they deserve.If you pretend amnesia when it comes to kashmiri pandits, then to hell with the thugs marauding as "freedom fighters".

Thirdly,please spare the Indians this psychobabble of bad governance,atrocities and duplicity.An American calling ANYONE by these names is akin to a whore cussing the virgin mary.
Last but not the least quit poking your nose where it doesnt belong.Get a life or whatever is left of it.
Last time i checked you had screwed korea,vietnam,Iraq and now afghanistan and you have the audacity to lecture the Indians,specially after what you have done to the Native Americans??..huh.. [commenter at FP]

[Ray]

Backward Observer,

The fact that foreigners and foreign correspondents are allowed to freely move without restrictions in Kashmir should indicate that there is nothing to hide.

It maybe mentioned the same freedom to foreigners or foreign media personnel is not allowed in Pakistan's Northern Areas and there is much to write about.

That apart, many military personnel have been convicted and dismissed from service when human rights cases have been heard and proved in the Courts.

Sensational journalism cannot be curbed since India is a democratic country.

Have we not been fed with gruesome stories of human rights abuses in USSR and China in the media repeatedly and more so, through the pages of a respected and hailed magazine called the Readers Digest? I grew up on those stories.

How come China has suddenly become a place where such gruesome stories no longer surface?

The media is a great tool to 'mould' public opinion.

Remember Murdoch?

He was the paragon of virtues, right?

He only gave the truth, right?

He is the tip of the iceberg.

BTW, why was Al Jazeerah bombed during the Iraq War? I am sure it is not too difficult to guess or is it?

The article is typical of sensational news that appeals. Mention some human angle stuff, a few names and spin away.

Anyone can sit with a computer and write an article on Guantanmo, Wei Wei or any other 'hot' stuff and make it very convincing.

Because that would ruin the heart wrenching prose of his story.

How come he has failed to mention the number of military and paramilitary personnel including officers who have been jailed?

And who controls the media?

India?

Hope you enjoyed your tot of whatever you drank!

[Bill Moore]

Backwards Observer, I don't disagree with your observations, India is frequently called, "a democracy of the few, for the few." India is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, especially considering its status as an emerging superpower. In my opinion this level of corruption equates to a nation where the rule of law is near non-existent, which makes human rights violations the easier to get away with. The violations are not limited to Kashmir, and this is one of the reasons there are and have been so many insurgencies. Of course with a population of close to a billion, and a nation with 13 separate languages, and numerous religious groups with extremists in each that are intolerant of one another, plus a history of discrimination (the untouchables and other castes), the fact that India is emerging as a superpower is somewhat of a miracle.

http://www.achrweb.org/

Torture in India 2011 which is only online states that a total of 14,231 persons i.e. more than four persons per day died in police and judicial custody in India from 2001 to 2010. This includes 1,504 deaths in police custody and 12,727 deaths in judicial custody during the year 2001-2002 to February 2010. A large majority of these deaths are a direct consequence of torture in custody. But these no way reflect the extent of torture in India. These deaths as reported to the NHRC reflect only a fraction of the menace of torture and custodial deaths in India.

Since 2010, at least 12 RTI activists have been murdered for seeking information to “promote transparency and accountability in the working of every public authority” of India. Ms. Shehla Masood, a prominent woman RTI activist of Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh was murdered on 16 August 2011. She joined the growing list of RTI activists who have been murdered

The good news is many Indians are taking action against the rampant corruption, and we can hope this will result in a nation ruled by law, which in turn will better protect human rights.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16003576

The scale of corruption in modern India is astounding. The size of bribes and kickbacks is enormous, the stories of corruption astonishing, and the audacity of corruption's big players ever more apparent. India has become a great power, but it has done so without washing away the canker of corruption.

There's something refreshing about this upsurge of anti-corruption activity - and also something disturbing. As some left-wing critics are now pointing out, there's a danger that anti-corruption activists will throw the baby out with the bath water. Youth where I work in Uttar Pradesh point out that you can criticise politicians as much as you like, but at least they have been elected. Indeed, many are now seeing the Anna movement something of a corporate conspiracy.

Things are not any better in Pakistan or Bangladesh, so as we all know this is a region of the world that has immense challenges to over come.

[blueblood]

I don't think "you" should plan to employ "them". That sort of paternalistic thinking is rarely effective. I'd say provide education and infrastructure and let them sort it out. They might surprise you.

There is a saying in Urdu, "khali dimaag shaitan ka ghar" which means when a man has nothing good to do, he'll do something evil. If you don't employ them this is what you'll get. Many Kashmiris who were throwing rocks last year are now employed by both government and small private industries. Next time these guys will be more worried about completing their targets next day than throwing stones.

Do you think this would change if the insurgents were stronger, better organized, better armed, and in general more of a threat? Are any of the Indian insurgencies really perceived as a threat to the state, or are they more peripheral matters of a level that can be handled by police work?

I am surprised, if you don't consider LET, HUJI etc to be organised then who are? Most of the early fighters were the same that Soviets fought in Astan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyas_Kashmiri

Just for example.

[Ray]

LeT and HUJI and the others are not only well organised, well financed and well equipped, but they are govt and Army to include ISI sponsored and trained!

[Bill Moore]

Posted by Ken,

That is very wise.

Tools available will always be used where they should not be unless troops are truly superbly trained -- an expensive and thus understandably rare case in any Army.

If some standard tools aren't available, then better thinking and tactics are necessary -- and will generally appear...

Interesting observation, and perhaps this is one reason we fail to adapt in some cases? I don't want to imply we don't adapt, because we have and do, but we may not be adapting appropriately for IW if we continue to rely "mainly" on superior fire power (intead of strategy).

Posted by Ray,

LeT and HUJI and the others are not only well organised, well financed and well equipped, but they are govt and Army to include ISI sponsored and trained!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read and understand that India had up to 20 different insurgencies/separatist movements, etc., and that approximately 13 are active now, and the greatest threat to India is the Naxolite insurgency (Maoists). While the Muslim terrorist groups conduct deep attacks throughout India, the Muslim insurgency proper is largely restricted to Kashmir. What did I get wrong?

[Ray]

Ray,


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read and understand that India had up to 20 different insurgencies/separatist movements, etc., and that approximately 13 are active now, and the greatest threat to India is the Naxolite insurgency (Maoists). While the Muslim terrorist groups conduct deep attacks throughout India, the Muslim insurgency proper is largely restricted to Kashmir. What did I get wrong?

The insurgencies that keep India occupied is the Pakistan based terrorists who operate in Kashmir and the Maoists.

The others are dormant and some exist merely on paper.

Apart from the foreign sponsored terrorists in Kashmir, there is also the terrorist attacks in hinterland India, again organised and sponsored by Pakistan, and some of them are mounted with Indian operatives who, unfortunately are Muslims.

It has been established that China is financing and equipping the Maoists.

Maybe that is the reason why the Govt of India has suddenly taken a very strong line towards China and that has made China quite uncomfortable as they feel it India is being encouraged by the US.

[Dayuhan]

There is a saying in Urdu, "khali dimaag shaitan ka ghar" which means when a man has nothing good to do, he'll do something evil. If you don't employ them this is what you'll get. Many Kashmiris who were throwing rocks last year are now employed by both government and small private industries. Next time these guys will be more worried about completing their targets next day than throwing stones.

Certainly it is good for people to be employed. My suggestion was that an indigenous economy under local control can be fostered by the development of education and infrastructure, and that this will be more stable and less likely to produce a violent backlash than attempts by outside parties to employ "them". Tribal areas typically - and for good reason - see government and outside investors as internal colonists bent on exploitation.

I am surprised, if you don't consider LET, HUJI etc to be organised then who are? Most of the early fighters were the same that Soviets fought in Astan.

I would consider LeT and HUJI to be Pakistan-based terrorist organizations, not Indian insurgencies.