Quote Originally Posted by relative autonomy View Post
Ken, I see you're point on the balance between government and intervention. The thing is, though, that capitalism needs to do more than continue to meet the needs of the middle classes in the advanced industrial world. we have all the crap we need! instead manufacturing needs and pursuing a cynical model of globalization, which all to often is a race to the bottom, business needs to take a risk, invest some money and try to meet the very real needs the developing world. i think benjamin barber on the bill moyers journal talks about this a lot more intelligently than i can and you can check that out here:
Capitalism does do more than that, though not to the extent Barber and you want -- I doubt that it will ever do that. Nor, I would add, are a lot of government attempts to force it to do so likely to have much effect. Neither do I think it necessary; most of the world will do alright if only provided a level playing field; capitalism per se rarely denies that to anywhere near the extent that politicians do (see subsidies, tariffs, et,al.)

Fascism maybe overused but I also think people need to incorporate a critique of authoritarian forms...
Possibly true but valid critiques will not focus on one aspect but will fairly critique all authoritarian forms -- to include rampant socialism which has proven to be ineffective, as authoritarian as fascism and more pernicious as it is couched in idealistic terms (see Klein, N.)

You can't have true democracy when the economy is run by authoritarian structures like TNCs. You can have a plutocracy but i don't think that is value anyone should spill blood for. i should have said plutocracy instead of fascism in my first post becuase its much more accurate and less polemical.
What is a value that anyone should spill blood for?

The economy, world type, is not run by TNCs but by their owners and investors. I'm one. I assure you I'm not a plutocrat.

i do think this conversation is very central to "small wars" becuase "winning the hearts and minds" often comes down to who can deliver the economic services people need to live a decent and equitable life. i feel an exclusive focus on the military aspects can leave this out and, then, all the bullets in the world can't delay inevitability.
Starting at the end and working backwards, who is using an exclusively military focus?

"Hearts and Minds" is a myth, a dangerous myth. It presumes (in the worst sense of the word) to know what others want or need, then to deliver it and thus to convert them into mini clones of the presumer. Fatal fallacy. No foreign power is ever going to win the heart or mind of anyone in any real sense. People will do what is perceived to be in the interest of themselves and, in many societies of their family, clan or tribe. Only the people can determine what those interests are and while they will take what is freely offered that they want or can use, they will utterly reject giving anyone their heart or mind. They will assert their independence in various ways -- as well they should. That's what is inevitable.

Hearts and minds is pure bunkum, sold by snake oil salesmen who believe all people are innately good and will behave just as said salesmen behave (or want others to behave...). People are not innately good nor are they all equal in any sense. Michael Jordan plays basketball several orders of magnitude better than I ever could. Of all the people in the world, about half are good ranging to great and the remainder are poor ranging to dangerously bad. Kant may have had some things wrong (as is true with all of us) but he had the selfish and own interest parts right. There are a lot of evil folks out there and most will take an idealistic thought and parlay it to their advantage and then slit your throat.

I still think, instead of dumping endless money into a needless invasion in Iraq...
Money supply isn't endless. As for needless, that is at least arguable. There were admittedly other ways to do what was done (shake up the ME in an attempt to speed up the inevitable from five or six generations -- or even more -- to just two or three) and the invasion was admittedly a calculated risk. Whether it achieves the goal is to be determined.

...we should have put diplomatic pressure on regimes like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia...
What do you think we've been doing to both those nations since the 1950s? Didn't get much traction, did it.

...and done "civic action" or peace corp type programs to make life less desperate for the people in the margins...
Civic action is somewhat overrated but in any event, it takes the willing acceptance of the sovereign nation of your program to be effective. Lacking that acceptance and a massive program, the probability of any success is slim. The Peace Corps is a mixed bag, it has many dedicated volunteers who do good stuff. It also has really, overall, been only marginally effective. In any event, if you think either nation would have accepted a lot of Americans in their country to 'help' them, you don't understand the pride and sovereignty factor. If you think hiring local contractors or funneling money to the local government to do the job in lieu of sending Americans, you don't understand the local mores on skimming money from gullible fools while doing no or little work -- and that sub standard.

... whom, i feel, are legitimately attracted to extremist ideologies becuase they have few other options...
True but do not buy the myth that those disaffected are the poor and downtrodden. Those folks are too busy staying alive to indulge in revolutionary foolishness. The disaffected who do engage are predominately educated and at least moderately well off and imbued with radical fervor because the society from which they come irritates them to some degree and / or cannot productively employ them.

For a fraction of the cost of the invading Iraq we could have provided clean drinking water, medical treatment and other humanitarian efforts which, beyond the shadow of a doubt, would have done more to win "the war on terror" than unilaterally invading a secular, quasi-socialist authoritarian state, which had no love for Islamic radicalism nor any connection to 9-11.
Clean drinking water and medical treatment where?

The "secular, quasi-socialist authoritarian state, which had no love for Islamic radicalism nor any connection to 9-11." also had the misfortune of possessing an unloved dictator, pariah status, a largely ineffective military and, most importantly, geographic centrality in the Middle East. Tough but them's the breaks in the real world

Klein's polemics aside, I think here is where the shock docterine can be important: to make clear the overlaps between "small wars" and ultra-right economics. if "small wars" can defeat extremist movements and help create liberal democracies they can't be used to push certain political agendas. her anaylsis isn't perfect but no one's is. she deserves some credit for undertaking an ambitious argument that few people would even attempt to undertake.
We can disagree on most of that with agreement on the word "help" -- war cannot do that, this one can open a window for that to occur, no more. That's all we've done.