Chlid Sex Abuse by AFG Security Forces?

[rtodhner]

While many of these "sexual abuse" and "child molestation" incidents meet the criteria to be defined as sex crimes in the United States (and many other parts of the world), they may or may not in Afghanistan and other nations/cultures in the region. The fact is that many of the "laws" we have in the United States are actually legalized moral opinions. We need to tread cautiously when upholding the "law" because it may turn out that we're only upholding a cultural opinion/norm not shared by the "law breaker."

Do I find such behavior repugnant and despicable? Yes. Do I think they are sex crimes? Yes. Can the United States go around protecting the world from itself? No. If the behavior being observed violates local laws, then the United States and other peace keepers need to intervene. If not, then we need to do our best to influence the locals to change. However, we cannot impose our beliefs, customs, and laws upon cultures that do not share them

To do otherwise, no matter how strongly we may feel on the issue, is a sure recipe for the situation to head due south and ensure that we meet the same fate as the Soviets and others who have attempted to control the area.

[sapperfitz82]

While many of these "sexual abuse" and "child molestation" incidents meet the criteria to be defined as sex crimes in the United States (and many other parts of the world), they may or may not in Afghanistan and other nations/cultures in the region. The fact is that many of the "laws" we have in the United States are actually legalized moral opinions. We need to tread cautiously when upholding the "law" because it may turn out that we're only upholding a cultural opinion/norm not shared by the "law breaker."

I'd tell you that every where I went, which covered from Helmand east and Abad south, the locals all denied that there was a pederast in their village, the terp and ANA indentified at least one, and based on the evidence (painted boys, etc.) they were correct more often than not. Coupled with the miracle of ITAS and other night vision, I can tell you it happens with 100% surety.

The locals deny this because of pride and machismo. IOT get involved, we would need to be much more connected to that particular tribe, and know the actual situation. In my experience, there is no way that will ever happen, the tribal mindset is simply too insular.

To heavy-handidly try to enforce the Afghan/Islamic law regarding homosexuality/child abuse would invariably come off wrong. Better would be an information campaign that advocates in the children's favor (think DoS), and turning over hard evidence (we have video of the actual events) to local prosecuter and pressuring action through their system.

Any direct action on our part becomes and change of mission and/or a tar baby.

Believe me, given that ROE authorized use of deadly force to prevent rape, I had a very hard time restraining myself and others. But until we call this a crusade, we will have to stick to our mission.

[Rex Brynen]

To heavy-handidly try to enforce the Afghan/Islamic law regarding homosexuality/child abuse would invariably come off wrong. Better would be an information campaign that advocates in the children's favor (think DoS), and turning over hard evidence (we have video of the actual events) to local prosecuter and pressuring action through their system.

Agreed, although given the limits of the Afghan justice system—especially in rural areas—this might be a rather faint hope.

The first step is to engage with significant local actors—ANP, justice officials, imams, community and educational leaders, UNICEF, etc.—and scope out what can and cannot be done locally, by whom, what responses would be productive rather than counterproductive, and what resources are needed where. The solution needs to emerge locally. It probably also needs actors on the international community taking on a quiet role of shepherd and facilitator. I also suspect that one deals with this issue first in urban areas, where there is a degree of governance and legal administration, and worry about the hinterland later.

While the cultural and political context varies markedly, the intersection of the child sex trade and armed conflict is hardly unique to Afghanistan. Almost every place it is dealt with, it involves a host of cultural, religious, political, and COIN/stabilization/PKO sensitivities. While no one would claim a massive success rate, there is very substantial experience to draw upon.

I might also add that where these sorts of issues have been addressed in other contexts, the overwhelming majority of those providing the front-line response are locals, not expats or foreign military forces. Outsiders can provide technical and financial assistance, but any longer-term solution requires community mobilization and engagement.

[milnews.ca]

Do I find such behavior repugnant and despicable? Yes. Do I think they are sex crimes? Yes. Can the United States go around protecting the world from itself? No. If the behavior being observed violates local laws, then the United States and other peace keepers need to intervene. If not, then we need to do our best to influence the locals to change.

Well, according to this reference:

....the fundamental attitude of Afghan law towards sexual activity is best expressed in the Civil Code, which is also a product of the 1970’s socialist period. Article 60 of the Civil Code defines marriage as “a contract which legalizes intercourse between a man and a woman….” ....The Penal Code proceeds from the fundamental assumption that sexual activity is by definition illegal, criminal, and punishable. Only the marriage contract removes the criminal nature of sex. This understanding of sex disregards the element of consent that is imperative in classifying the crime of rape in most modern legal systems. In Afghanistan, outside of marriage, both consensual and non-consensual sex are equally punishable, while within marriage, both types of sex are equally permissible....

and according to this one, cited by Stars & Stripes:

Afghanistan
Male-Female Sex: 18/Married
Male-Male Sex: Illegal
Female-Female Sex Illegal

any sex between males, consensual or not, age of majority or not, appears to be illegal in AFG.

However, we cannot impose our beliefs, customs, and laws upon cultures that do not share them

To do otherwise, no matter how strongly we may feel on the issue, is a sure recipe for the situation to head due south and ensure that we meet the same fate as the Soviets and others who have attempted to control the area.

Too true.

However, what do you make of the devil's advocate position that females have been denied education in a LOT of conservative, traditional rural AFG for a looooooooooong time, and we (the Coalition) seem to be pushing hard to enable that scale of culture change?

[Ken White]

that are ignored by more people than not. There's an old saw; "You cannot legislate morality" and there's a lot of truth in it. In any event, for this behavior what Afghan law says and what actually transpire are different and the law is effectively irrelevant at this time. It would be nice if that changed -- but external Armed Forces -- yours, ours, anyone elses -- are not the proper instruments to effect that change. Can gentle comments and subtle nudge be made? Yes -- but caution needs to be exercised and an overt push should not be contemplated by anyone military.

With respect to this:

"However, what do you make of the devil's advocate position that females have been denied education in a LOT of conservative, traditional rural AFG for a looooooooooong time, and we (the Coalition) seem to be pushing hard to enable that scale of culture change?

Not a 'moral' question. Yet, the same caution I stated above applies; in this case we can just nudge harder. It is not the action but the actor and the degree of effort that is critical. Is the bulk of feminine freedom pressure coming from uniformed or civilian coalition folks and how much local support for the coalition position exists? It's one thing to insist on elimination of age old custom when the issue is overt and acknowledged (female status) and yet another when the issue is denied and hidden (pederasty). Try pressuring one of your friends to stop doing something they hide but you know they do; then try to get a Police Officer to accost them about it...

[milnews.ca]

...when I read this:

Try pressuring one of your friends to stop doing something they hide but you know they do; then try to get a Police Officer to accost them about it...

This paints a good picture. I still think something should be done (a la Rex Brynen's ideas), but I'm a lot clearer on where you're coming from.

[Ken White]

My concern is not to get Private Snuffy (or Lieutenant Heebly, much less Colonel Blimp) caught in a bind that's beyond their power to fix and then criticize them for failing.

Which, as I read the Letters to the Editor in the Toronto Star this morning seems about to happen. Just as I said early on in this thread...

[Ron Humphrey]

My concern is not to get Private Snuffy (or Lieutenant Heebly, much less Colonel Blimp) caught in a bind that's beyond their power to fix and then criticize them for failing.

Which, as I read the Letters to the Editor in the Toronto Star this morning seems about to happen. Just as I said early on in this thread...

Its made abundantly clear that in regards to locations where coallition forces live it ain't gonna happen.

[Ken White]

Its made abundantly clear that in regards to locations where coallition forces live it ain't gonna happen.

Unless I'm mistaken, "My concern is not to get Private Snuffy (or Lieutenant Heebly, much less Colonel Blimp) caught in a bind that's beyond their power to fix and then criticize them for failing" if we do what you suggest is going to be over ridden by the fact that "It would be nice if that changed -- but external Armed Forces -- yours, ours, anyone elses -- are not the proper instruments to effect that change. Can gentle comments and subtle nudge be made? Yes -- but caution needs to be exercised and an overt push should not be contemplated by anyone military." I don't like it one bit either -- but that's not the issue.

It is none of any Armed Force's business. We are all human beings and have likes and beliefs but when one wears a uniform those are by necessity subjugated. Your proposal would do great harm to anyones attempts to get popular public support.