Iraq: Out of the desert into Mosul (closed)

[AmericanPride]

So yes I tend to understand the Sunni Shia clash---you really do need to read the Koran more often and a couple of recent USC books that have hit the market on the Sunni Shia Clash.

The Koran is great for understanding terminology, ideas, and context. It's not so great in explaining the structure of the regional security regime, the fraility of Middle Eastern states, and the consequences of persistent international penetration of the region. Whether Arabs worshipped Allah or the Flying Spaghetti Monister, the destruction of Iraq would have produced the kind of violence we are witnessing unfold today. The revival of militant Islam and the explosion of sectarian violence is not the cause of the fundamental conflict in the region; it's the expression of that conflict through a religious (and ethnic) frame.

[OUTLAW 09]

The Koran is great for understanding terminology, ideas, and context. It's not so great in explaining the structure of the regional security regime, the fraility of Middle Eastern states, and the consequences of persistent international penetration of the region. Whether Arabs worshipped Allah or the Flying Spaghetti Monister, the destruction of Iraq would have produced the kind of violence we are witnessing unfold today. The revival of militant Islam and the explosion of sectarian violence is not the cause of the fundamental conflict in the region; it's the expression of that conflict through a religious (and ethnic) frame.

But see AP you miss the point again---it explains the thinking, the acting, the morality of the individuals we call terrorists or others might call freedom fighters or in the case of IS--Takfirists.

See AP the Salafists interpret the Koran differently than do Takfirists--unless and this is critical unless you truly understand how they interpret the differences---How do you actually analyze their movements/internal developments, their thoughts, their politics, and their reasons for fighting Shia or for that matter each other. You mentioned Wahhabism---they have their own interpretations as well that cross over both.

And more importantly how and why do they form coalitions now with say the IS and then later other groups.

See AP Islam is a complete package---economic thoughts, political thoughts, judicial thoughts and morality. The Koran is the centerpiece and the core document---understand it and you understand more than you will ever need to in understanding the Sunni Shia clash and what drove Khomeini and still drives the core Iranian group--the Quds Force as it both protects and expands the Green Crescent in the name of Khomeini.

See AP it is all connected--you tend to just see the "big picture" without understanding that the small bits and pieces actually form the big picture.

You do not see that complete package in say Christianity. Therefore the core differences right now in how IS is treating Christians.

They are acting out of the Takfiri mindset---many Salafists will tolerate Christians under the concept of "they are also people of the book". Secular Muslims and there are many in Iraq totally tolerate Christians--but where do we hear that being mentioned-and secular Muslims tolerate Shia and often intermarry and yes Sunni do convert to Shia--right now it is only IS that is being talked about.

Now you can understand the violence angle of IS.

[AmericanPride]

See AP the Salafists interpret the Koran differently than do Takfirists--unless and this is critical unless you truly understand how they interpret the differences---How do you actually analysis their movements, their thoughts, their politics, and their reasons for fighting Shia or for that mater each other.

See AP Islam is a complete package---economic thoughts, political thoughts, judicial thoughts and morality. the Koran is the centerpiece and the core document---yesterday it and you understand more than you will ever need to in understanding the Sunni Shia clash and what drove Khomeini and still drives the core Iranian group--the Quds force

Hence my comment that:

The Koran is great for understanding terminology, ideas, and context

You do not see that in say Christianity.

Actually - you do, mostly among the religious right (Evangelicials, dominonists, etc).

But neither Christianity or Islam explain conflict in international and regional systems, nor the consequences of failure in projects of state formation. Not one word written in either religious script would have provided any predictability for the fall-out of the destruction of Iraq.

[OUTLAW 09]

Hence my comment that:





Actually - you do, mostly among the religious right (Evangelicials, dominonists, etc).

But neither Christianity or Islam explain conflict in international and regional systems, nor the consequences of failure in projects of state formation. Not one word written in either religious script would have provided any predictability for the fall-out of the destruction of Iraq.

See AP again you do not get it---yes one might even argue as some on the Left here in Europe do argue--a Christian fundamentalist is just as dangerous as a jihadi.

Give it some thought and you will find yourself agreeing--all fundamentalism is deadly regardless from right or left.

But here we are talking about Islam and how it has evolved in the ME especially the two strains Sunni and Shia.

You do realize that there is a deep political and governmental system inside Islam right AP?--- and there have been deep internal Sunni debate on how governmental functions should be in Islam---the problem has been there seems to be always a dictator standing in the way or say the Muslim Brotherhood felt they could shift a basically secular Islamic country ie Egypt to an Islamic State without asking the population.

That is the core problem right now in Iraq---the Sunni have a governing vision and the Shia historically have not had that strong a view on governing and we the US allowed a Shia dictator to emerge---so why did we invade to eliminate Saddam when we got Malaki in exchange?.

That was until Khomeini filled the Shia governing void with what can be called a ruling Shia theocracy and that my friend you will not/do not find in the Shia historical thoughts on governing. Actually if you read deeper in the net you will find that is the real reason al Sadr left Iran and why he and Sistani are often of the same views on how to govern a multi Islam state.

Really go back and Google the Green Crescent concept and you will understand exactly why there is a regional hegemony fight going on between Iran the "Protector" of Shiaism and the KSA the "Protector" of the global Sunni community.

[OUTLAW 09]

Hence my comment that:





Actually - you do, mostly among the religious right (Evangelicials, dominonists, etc).

But neither Christianity or Islam explain conflict in international and regional systems, nor the consequences of failure in projects of state formation. Not one word written in either religious script would have provided any predictability for the fall-out of the destruction of Iraq.

See AP I am not interested in explaining how it fits into an international or regional system---I am interested in how both solve their own problems without outside influence.

There is an overworked concept called rule of law and good governance--it should be and must be up to the target population to work through and resolve their own issues--we can stand on the side and assist or offer advice but in the end it is that target population that must define what the rule of law and good governance looks and acts like for them and not for some international system.

It is not up to us or anyone else to determine that decision making process and yes it might be brutal and ugly but they own it and it is their own developmental path.

Now go back and look at the Maidan and the following attempt by Russia to control the outcome of the Colored Revolts---why out of fear they would be the next Colored Revolt.

AP it is that simple---you read far more into these things than is necessary---it is not rocket science and yet you attempt to make it a science--and that is your fatal flaw.