In The USA: the Next Revolution

[Bill Moore]

Posted by Fuchs

Oh, and before someone asks; the other, associated myth that an early action of all new dictators (including Hitler) is to disarm the population is wrong, too. Gun control laws were passed in Germany in the late 20's already, and multiple dictatorships around the world tolerated rifle and other arms possession by civilians.

True, in Iraq most families had firearms (assualt rifles) for protection, and that sure as hell didn't stop Saddam and his forces from effectively crushing dissent. I believe most North Korean citizens are indoctrinated, armed, and trained in militant activities from a very young age.

None the less, I am not giving up my right to own firearms. Laws that facilitate cooling off periods for 72 or so hours before you can purchase a weapon make sense, but the anti-gun activists want to a lot further than that. Forget the rebellion talk, most folks just want to go hunting or be able to protect their property and families from violent criminals.

Marc, the administration has a long record of being associated with left wing activists such as Acorn and the unions, and the administration failed to condemn the Black Panthers who intiminated voters at voting locations and even recently failed to comment on a far left Congress man's comments that were way out of bounds.

I'm an independent that dislikes the Tea Party as much as the far left, and in my view we don't need ideologues we need problem solvers. As you have probably observed our nation is becoming increasingly divided and unfortunately our political leaders on both sides are promoting and exploiting this for personal advantage. Extreme right and left wing rhetoric will eventually result in ugly events that are in no one's interest. When you play with fire you risk getting burnt.

I don't anticipate a revolution, though they're hard to see coming, and only appeared to be obvious in hindsight, but I do anticipate greater political violence if our leaders don't return to a more civil way of conducting business.

[slapout9]

Originally Posted by Bill Moore

I'm an independent that dislikes the Tea Party as much as the far left, and in my view we don't need ideologues we need problem solvers. As you have probably observed our nation is becoming increasingly divided and unfortunately our political leaders on both sides are promoting and exploiting this for personal advantage. Extreme right and left wing rhetoric will eventually result in ugly events that are in no one's interest. When you play with fire you risk getting burnt.

I don't anticipate a revolution, though they're hard to see coming, and only appeared to be obvious in hindsight, but I do anticipate greater political violence if our leaders don't return to a more civil way of conducting business.

Yep, which is why I started this thread in the first place. I didn't have a super computer either We are in deep trouble

[slapout9]

RT interview of English student on Education cuts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDAca...eature=feedrec

[davidbfpo]

Slap,

I'm not convinced a Russian TV interview is the best barometer of opposition to cuts in UK state spending and borrowing - from November 2010.

Whether the policy of cuts is best for the economy is a moot point, slowly the UK public IMHO are realising we cannot borrow on the scale we have been doing. The cuts appears stark, but amount to 3% of all spending. Allocation of cuts has meant some sectors are required to cut by 20% over the next three years, including law enforcement and a few have grown, notably overseas aid.

The interview did touch on one aspect that resonated the deep hostility to elected politicians, notably the Liberal-Democrats, who are the junior coalition partners, who before the election opposed tuition fees being increased (fees for university-level education) and then changed their stance.

IMHO there is an increasing disconnect between the public and elected politicians in the UK. The credibility of politicians has declined for years, which accelerated after the scandal of parliamentary expenses and their determination to pursue policies at variance with the electorate's views (on immigration, Europe, public spending, justice and hanging). Participation in elections has steadily gone down, with the exception of the last General Election I concede and political party membership has waned.

The political decision to support a few banks, then more, was a mistake and how the taxpayer spent bewildering large sums to support them evades understanding. Not helped by the now state supported, if not part-owned banks insisting on paying competitive bonuses.

Looking across Europe and reflecting comments here - on the USA - I suspect this disconnect and dismay over banking is a shared experience.

[slapout9]

Nice analysis David......I didn't notice it was 2010.


One thing that I have noticed as least in the USA is avery prominent absence of the Church!!! They were very vocal in the 60's??
Anyway some music for the Revolution or rather for the Counter-Revolution, from the summer 1969 and from the UK......Jackie DeShannon "Put A Little Love In Your Heart"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCXu6...eature=related

[Levi]

Hello slapout9.

I live in northwest illinois. There is very little work here. You see various cuts in spending from local and state government, but I for one do not hear a lot of grumbling. There is, of course, anger and resentment over what many see as a drop in level of lifestyle and income locally, versus the perceived "bailout wealthy", and as always, members of congress et al. I don't see any danger in the wind. I do see a rise in common and open talk of folks who want to game the system by going on disability of some type, state and local aid fraud (usually but not always a single mother of multiple children getting state aid, living in a rent free home with a working male who is not on the lease or listed as living there, but has income), as well as many who move into a sortof "homesteading" situation, with a few animals, and chickens and fruit and vegetable gardens becoming more common once again. More talk about getting off the grid, as it were. If the average income in this area is accurate, then few of us are paying much in state and federal taxes, if any. I think that for a few years, maybe even a few decades ( I hope not) that this IS the revolution. Poor people. All over. More extended family's living together. Just a general "hunkering down" and waiting for better times. I like my neighbors. We all live on farms (ours is rented, as are many around here) we all see each other in the closest town. Riots in major metro areas? Maybe. Maybe even probably. But I just don't see a "bring down the government" revolution growing.

[slapout9]

Originally Posted by Levi

Maybe even probably. But I just don't see a "bring down the government" revolution growing.

I don't either, but if you look back at some of the older posts in this thread you will see a speech I posted by President Kennedy talking about the Revolution that was coming back then. However any Revolution certainly does have potential for violence.

Here is the link to the speech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJrFpGYgMlE

[davidbfpo]

As upon request, a BBC News story, with the headline 'Steep' drop in public confidence in MPs, says watchdog' and it opens with:

The percentage of people in England who think MPs are dedicated to working well for the public dropped from 46% to 26%.

The Committee on Standards in Public Life said its survey indicated concerns "with self-serving behaviour" by MPs overshadowed other issues.

It does have this, odd finding:

The young, people from ethnic minorities and those in higher paid jobs tended to have more trust in MPs in general.

And a 'Trusted to tell the Truth' list:

Judges - 80%
Senior police - 73%
TV journalists - 58%
Top civil servants - 41%
Broadsheet journalists - 41%
Local MPs - 40%
Ministers - 26%
MPs in general - 26%
Tabloid journalists - 16%

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14924465

[davidbfpo]

I'm on a roll here. This is a comment by a senior Conservative minister reflecting on the recent English riots:

Whether in the banking crisis, phone hacking or the MPs' expenses scandal, we have seen a failure of responsibility from the leaders of our society.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14926322

Readers, especially Slap,

Are there similar public opinion findings regarding US institutions, as per my previous post?

[AdamG]

Originally Posted by Levi

Riots in major metro areas? Maybe. Maybe even probably. But I just don't see a "bring down the government" revolution growing.

Originally Posted by Bill Moore

I don't anticipate a revolution, though they're hard to see coming, and only appeared to be obvious in hindsight, but I do anticipate greater political violence if our leaders don't return to a more civil way of conducting business.

And that's the point - how would you know when you were sitting on the cusp of things spiraling out of control? One can't wonder what people were thinking in April 1774 or the summer of 1860 - or how close we've come to really bad times (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot )

Golly, if one could only differentiate between the usual sine wave of stupidity that's part and parcel of our nation, and those spikes that lead straight into the realm of chaos.

[slapout9]

Originally Posted by davidbfpo

I'm on a roll here. This is a comment by a senior Conservative minister reflecting on the recent English riots:

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14926322

Readers, especially Slap,

Are there similar public opinion findings regarding US institutions, as per my previous post?

Probably are David, but look at this link. The US is violating a UN resolution on Human Rights according to the article. H/T to John Robb for posting this.
http://www.businessinsider.com/lakew...ty-2011-9?op=1

You are on a roll David, the problem of all problems is a Moral one.

[AdamG]

Organizers of the event swear up and down that the mass protest will be nonviolent in nature. This raises the question of why they named their event after the original “Days of Rage” that took place in Chicago in 1969. That tumultuous year, members of what was later to become known as the Weather Underground provoked four days of riots and demonstrations against The System.
The September 17 protest comes months after ACORN founder Wade Rathke wrote of an “anti-banking jihad” and SEIU operative Stephen Lerner promised to “bring down the stock market” through a campaign of disruption. Sociologist Abby Scher said she was bullish on the potential of Lerner’s plan to cause massive upheaval. “As Frances Fox Piven and [Richard] Cloward taught us … poor peoples’ movements are successful when they create conditions of ungovernability. And then you win victories.”

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/09/16/r...y-wall-street/

[slapout9]

Day od rage planned against Wall Street-link to Washington Post article



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...washingtonpost

[Levi]

I have to wonder who, if anyone, would be "violent"? Would it be like a riot? Where there are just some people who are taking advantage of a situation? Or would it be joe citizen, out of work for too long, too far in debt, and fed up? The former should rightfully be arrested. The latter... it would be tough not to support my friends and neighbors. I just don't know what the alternative to the current political and financial make up of the country would consist of. A return to the (unamended) Constitution? Same game, different players? As far as the homeless people living in yurts, I am sure there is some number that is a tipping point for violence, if only locally. 70 is bad. But compared to some places I have been, 70 is nothing. SA seemed (to me) to be loaded with homeless when I was in Johannesburg and the North Coast last year. But they don't seem to want a revolution. (Plenty of other crime though, from what I was told.)

[slapout9]

I am trying to find an article I saw on TV today that NYC Mayor Bloomberg is concerned over unemployed-debt laden college students. Thye have no job and no hope of a job but a lot of debt The restless youth in general is one of my main interest and it does not look good, but I don't generally at the same things most experts look at.



Link to one report.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/09/...-remains-high/

[Bill Moore]

The Mayor should be concerned, since the Arab Spring and other uprisings were led by the disillusioned educated who had no opportunity. Your old school homeless were too downtrodden to organize and be violent, they couldn't see a better world worth fighting for, or in some cases were content with the homeless lifestyle, but the young turks will fight if they see no other way to extract themselves from this mess.

I don't know what the answer is, the Republicans have surrendered the intellectual high ground to populists running on nothing but an emotional far right platform that offers no solutions, and the democrats are led by the far left who are implementing programs that are simply making the problem worse, and then we have corrupt corporations continuing to buy favor through their lobbies resulting in policies that protect corporations that do little for America's economy (like GE), and horde their profits and transfer jobs overseas to increase the profits they horde.

We're in a period of serious decline with little hope visible on the near horizon.

[motorfirebox]

Hm! If the Dems were being led by the far left, Gitmo would have been closed by now. The Dems are being led by the less-right-than-the-Tea-Party. The actual leftist wackos (like me) are pretty unhappy with how unleft they are.

I think we're already seeing the violence we're predicting. It's just hidden, for the most part, and hasn't passed the boiling point. The union riots are in the mix, obviously. No deaths yet, that I'm aware of, but as soon as somebody dies in a union riot, the gloves are going to come off and a lot more will follow. There's also the flash mobs in Philly and elsewhere--young black men with very little to look forward to going out and threatening or attacking the rest of their society. I think anti-immigrant violence like the Shawna Forde case falls into this bailiwick. The underlying motivation there is financial--"der terk rr jerbs!" And so on. I think a lot of the violence that's coming, if it comes, will follow that pattern--it will be, on the surface, cut along racial lines, because race is such a huge divider.

[Bill Moore]

Hm! If the Dems were being led by the far left, Gitmo would have been closed by now.

Motorbox, there are checks and balances in the system, so Gitmo remaining open doesn't mean the Senate majority leader and House miniority leader are not left of center-left. It could mean that no matter how far left they are, they realize there are viable alternatives that are politically acceptable. Regardless of their left of center leaning, they'll be held accountable by the American people to implement policies that protect our nation. Our President is left of center-left, but is forced by realities to graviate somewhat more to the center than he would like. None the less we still have gay marriage, the appeal of the don't ask don't tell, a health care bill no one understands, a desire to significantly increase taxes, an attempt to greatly reduce DOD spending to protect entitlement spending, and so forth. These discussions were healthy in the past because they forced compromise in the middle, but now the ideologues have dug their heels in on both sides, so now we have dysfunction and frustration.

I agree with your assessment on the violence, and think some of it is hidden, and there is risk that some it will go viral out of wide spread frustration, lack of hope, anger, and a desire to vent their anger against someone who probably has nothing to do with their situation. It isn't too late to turn this around if the right leaders (probably won't be politicians) gain the media spot light and mobilize the American people the right way. We're going to need a MLK equivalent to generate concensus and compell peaceful action to turn our economy around.

[Fuchs]

Actually, Obama has been proved to be more "right-wing" than Nixon on many issues.
For starters, Nixon was about to do a far more "left-wing" (by today's standard) health insurance reform when he fell than Obama even asked for.

Besides; the left-right perception is largely dependant on the own position. Right wingers think that the media has a left bias, left-wingers think it has a right-wing bias...

[Bill Moore]

Fuchs,

Appreciate the article about President Nixon's effort to establish national health insurance (I didn't recall that). On the other hand it was a mistake for me to bring up health care, because just like peace in the Middle, both the left and right desire it, but neither can achieve it. The middle right isn't opposed to reforming our health care system, they just have a different approach that hopes to side step socializing it. If someone could explain the current health care in a paragraph or two in a way that most Americans could grasp it would be helpful, but unfortunately the 1,000 plus page bill is understood my few outside a few lawyers.

As for news media bias it is alive and well. Fox news is severely biased to the right, MSNBC is severely biased to the left, the other mainstream news media channels tend to bias somewhat to the left (CNN, NBC, ABC). Others disagree, but the only news I can find close to non-bias is the PBS newshour. That is a shame, because people will watch whatever news channel that reinforces their views further divided the nation and pushing further away from a frank discussion on how to solve the problems facing our nation.