|
|
#281 | |
|
Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,975
|
Maybe it was the contrast between the overt corruption of the Egyptian establishment and public servants on one side and the world as shown by Al Jazeera on the other side? Food price inflation between 22 and 24% may have contributed, but only as a microeconomic issue, not as a macroecoonomic issue. The country as a whole was easily able to afford its nutrition. A suppression of strikes and the resulting freeze of wages in combination with some other factors (insufficient effectiveness of food subsidies, for example) might be blamed if private food costs were really the issue. I do somehow doubt that being hungry for lack of money and being a political activist with internet access fit together, though. A usual suspect - income inequality - doesn't stand a basic test as a primary or even sole reason for the revolution. Many countries have a more appalling income distribution (including Turkey, most of both Americas and South Africa as examples). Yet another usual suspect - unemployment and underemployment - doesn't stand a basic (superficial) test either (private sector employment grew by about 3% for several years, indicating no significantly deteriorating situation (or at least no deterioration below the state of about 2000). Maybe - just maybe - the question should be directed at an Egyptian, not at a German. Just a thought. Quote:
Population growth is a macroeconomic thing. A family patron being working poor and unable to feed his family is a microeconomic thing. Egypt was quite fine in the macroeconomic level (except for the trade balance deficit, of course - but that was not an immediate shock because they still got credit). Economic growth was higher than population growth. Population growth - the macroeconomic property - was thus not the immediate reason behind the revolution. Things were likely really ugly at the microeconomic level for a large share of the urban population (rural populations rarely count in sudden revolutions - and they were probably profiteering in the last years anyway). Here you can argue about bread price inflation and stagnant wages, but that's a completely different thing than population growth and world marked wheat prices. In other words; population growth and wheat prices are far away behind several corners, while suppression of strikes and the resulting wage stagnation coupled with food price inflation are probably just around a single corner. Last edited by Fuchs; 02-15-2011 at 09:51 PM. Reason: added 2nd part |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#282 | ||
|
Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 6,104
|
A BBC News summary, which covers the issues the new, sorry adjusted regime:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12471990
I was struck by these passages: Quote:
Quote:
__________________
davidbfpo |
||
|
|
|
|
|
#283 | |||||
|
Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
|
Egypt’s population size is approximately 80 million persons and it has an approximate debt of 80 billion USD.
Reflections on the Revolution in Egypt, By Gideon Rachman, Published: February 14 2011 21:28, Financial Times Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Sapere Aude Last edited by Surferbeetle; 02-15-2011 at 10:15 PM. |
|||||
|
|
|
|
|
#284 | |
|
Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,450
|
Quote:
Although CIA estimates were lower than those from the USAF and others, they too were not accurate until intelligence from the U2 and Corona (both CIA programs at the time) began to provide some real data on Soviet capabilities. CIA estimates were changed based on the new information and, in hindsight, proved to be very accurate.
__________________
Supporting "time-limited, scope limited military actions" for 20 years. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#285 | |
|
Council Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Latitude 17° 5' 11N, Longitude 120° 54' 24E, altitude 1499m. Right where I want to be.
Posts: 2,554
|
Quote:
In an urban environment with a large number of economically marginal residents the price of food is always a key issue, and it's been a major concern for despots for a long time: one recalls the Roman emperors placating the masses with bread and circuses, and Marie Antoinette's infamous "let them eat cake". Micro is what it's all about: urban insurrections involve a very small percentage of the population. Overall employment rates mean less than the ability to absorb young people coming into the labor force, and GDP growth has little impact on the ability of poor people to put food in their stomachs or the ability of the government to supply cheap food. Cairo had bread riots when wheat prices spiked in 2008, but the time wasn't yet ripe for expansion to full revolt. This time around it was different. Wheat prices spiked in 2008 and 2011; Cairo had rioting in the streets in 2008 and threw out a government in 2011... no relationship? Of course resentment toward dictatorship is an underlying cause, but specific economic conditions play a major part in translating that general resentment into action. National unemployment may have been up, but it wasn't up among the mass of young urban males who compose the Twitterless footsoldiers of the revolution. Bread prices made a difference, and they will be a factor in the effort to produce a stable transition. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#286 | |
|
Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: IL
Posts: 73
|
Quote:
http://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source...sAuh3xr0pOPQag |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#287 | |
|
Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,568
|
Quote:
Certainly the increase in food prices played a role, although in Egypt those prices increases were typically smaller than in many other countries because of subsidies. Youth unemployment was important too too, although again Egypt was not the worst country for this, nor had it grown much worse lately. Years of authoritarian regime played a role--although as you correctly note, that in itself is an inadequate explanation for revolt. In the Egyptian case, however, the deliberalization of parliamentary politics and a sense of an impending engineered hand-off to power to Gamal Mubarak exacerbated this, heightening discontent with the regime in general and (in the latter case) creating cracks within the Army. The creative use of ICTs certainly played a role. Critically, Tunisia played a vital role by entirely changing people's perceptions of political opportunity structures. A very similar regime had just been overthrown through popular protest. The mukhabarat and other organs of state power had been shown to be less fearsome than had been previously believed. I was just finishing up a book on the prospects for Arab democratization in December, when all of this started to unfold. While much needs to be rewritten (grrrrr), I'm quite pleased with what was a central argument of that manuscript: that what the Arab world needed was a "catalytic event" that would alter perceptions of authoritarian power and set in motion democratic demonstration effects... precisely of the sort we now see.
__________________
They mostly come at night. Mostly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#288 | ||||||||
|
Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
|
State Owned Enterprises
Quote:
Egypt Generals Running Child Care Means Profit Motive, By Cam Simpson and Mariam Fam - Feb 15, 2011 3:00 PM MT, Bloomberg News Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Citigroup strikes deal to repay TARP, By David Ellis, CNNMoney.com staff writer, Last Updated: December 14, 2009: 10:15 AM ET Quote:
__________________
Sapere Aude |
||||||||
|
|
|
|
|
#289 | |
|
Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: IL
Posts: 73
|
Quote:
In my view, there is too much focus on the revolution itself. Starting the revolution was the easy part. However, it's not the revolution that counts, but the day that follows it. As Mr Fukuyama rightly observed, democracy is not a kind of default condition to which societies revert after the disappearance of an autocratic regime. The only tangible result we currently have is a power vacuum. The power vacuum will soon be filled by the best available alternative. Two organizations have a head start in this race: the Army and the Muslim Brothers. Emerging democratic political parties need time to catch up. The international community has to provide that time by keeping Egypt's graneries well filled. In Egypt, "bread is everything" and the lack of it will quickly lead to riots, resulting in either a military regime or an Islamist government. For democratic, secular parties to develop, the issue of food security has to be kept out of the debate. If necessary, international organizations have to step in to maintain food subsidies at their current level. However, even this does not guarantee a smooth transition towards democracy. What will the Egyptian political landscape look like six months from now? Three main actors will determine the outcome: secular groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Army. According to me, it is useful to analyze their plan A, their worst case scenario, and their plan B. Plan A of the secular groups is to unite around a democratic project and lead Egypt towards freedom, security, and prosperity. Their worst case scenario is to be marginalized or oppressed by either a military autocrat or an Islamist regime. Their plan B is a power sharing arrangement between themselves and the Muslim Brotherhood to marginalize the regular army. Plan A of the Muslim Brotherhood is an Islamic republic. However, the Muslim Brothers are pragmatic enough to realize this is not within reach at the moment. Such a project would require a popular Islamic army (like the Pasdaran in Iran) to balance the power of the regular army. At the moment, this is simply beyond their reach. Their worst case scenario is the emergence of a military autocrat like Nasser who removes them from the political scene. Their plan B is a power sharing arrangement between themselves and secular groups to marginalize the army. Plan A of the Army is to found a military regime. However, the generals are not blind to the fact that this is precisely what the revolution was all about. At the moment, the generals are simply unable to put the genie back in the bottle. Their worst case scenario is the loss of all their priviliges as the prime political and economic power in Egypt. Their plan B is to bide their time and foster disagreements between the Muslim Brotherhood and secular groups and within secular groups themselves. Political instability will put the army in the role of arbitrator, a steppingstone towards a monopoly on political power. I guess that, at the moment, all actors will opt for their Plan B. This will result in a system that is much more democratic than Moubarak's regime. However, it will be very fragile. Every actor will look for the first opportunity to move to Plan A and every actor will fear the worst case scenario is just around the corner. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#290 | |||
|
Council Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Latitude 17° 5' 11N, Longitude 120° 54' 24E, altitude 1499m. Right where I want to be.
Posts: 2,554
|
Quote:
Quote:
The whole bread conversation got pulled off track... I didn't originally cite it because it was "the cause", but because I see it as a significant factor in the aftermath, simply because it's a place where immediate policy can have an immediate impact. Tunisia may have been a major contributor to igniting Egypt, but it won't be a major concern for a new government, unless of course the military decides to hold onto power. Food prices and unemployment will be major concerns going forward: the populace doesn't just want freedom, it wants jobs and cheap bread. All this matters for a specific reason. Given Egypt's enormous debt, government deficit, and trade balance, IMF assistance and loan restructuring will probably be needed. The IMF and other creditors typically insist on terminating subsidies as a condition for assistance. This is good economics and it is necessary in the long term, but politically it could be a real problem. Egyptians have been addicted to that subsidy for a long time, and if they are forced to go cold turkey things could get ugly. I'm hoping the US and EU will use their influence to push for a gradual withdrawal of subsidies rather than an abrupt termination. A major shock early on could badly destabilize what's likely to be a very fragile transition government, creating conditions that could generate a radical takeover or a military coup, which would in turn create conditions that Islamic radicals could and would exploit. This article from 2008 gives a little rundown on events then, and a hint of the dimensions of the subsidy... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...ad-crisis.html Quote:
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|
#291 | |
|
Council Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 825
|
Quote:
Urban systems are just plain complicated. Lately, I have been fascinated with the structure of governments in these areas, from North Africa to Afghanistan. All have governance systems built on the original Persian satraps, later appearing as Greece, then Roman provinces, all arranged in top down hierarchies from empire/nation, down to provinces, and in turn, down to districts and subdistricts, all inferior sub-entities under the empire/nation. It's interesting to me that the later rulers/occupiers/dictators all kep[t the structure, assuring the subservience of sub-national government entities to the empire/nation. Not that "form" must dictate result, any more than geography or climate does, it is a substantial influence. Older systems of City-States (cities, towns and the regions associated with them) pre-dated the empire/nation satraps/provinces) and provided formats for numerous alternative and changeable affiliations within a framework that, in reality, was a lot closer to "democracy." No doubt, local rulers could be as bad as any, but they faced many obstacles to deep insanity, not to mention loss of local support, loss of revenues from trade, and loss of people (voting by feet). I wonder how much the actual top-down structure of these empire/nation's governance systems will continue to minimize emergence of local and representative governance, whether in Iran, Iraq, or Egypt? I have long suspected that, once we were gone, Iraqis would (and are) developing alternate systems of cities and regions that will, in the end, break the "eternal" mold of conquerors' governance systems. What was one of their first big constitutional steps in Iraq? Article 123 that provides for regions and alternative systems and structures. Absent structural changes, will most Egyptian aspirations be limited? Still under a system biased towards centralized controls, as our "provinces" plan for Iraq was? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#292 | |
|
Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
|
Catherine Ashton discussed a potential role for the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development in the stabilization of Egypt during a recent op-ed in the Financial Times.
The Country Assessment from the ERBD's 2010 Transition Report, regarding Turkey, was interesting: Quote:
__________________
Sapere Aude |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#293 |
|
Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: SOCAL
Posts: 1,937
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#294 | ||||
|
Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
|
Then candidate Sarkozy's position on Francafrique in The Economist, Dec 13th 2006, The glory days are passing, France debates the need to move beyond its traditional spheres of influence
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Sapere Aude Last edited by Surferbeetle; 02-27-2011 at 06:56 AM. |
||||
|
|
|
|
|
#295 | |
|
Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 6,104
|
Oddly there has been little coverage of the 'new' Egypt and the recent referendum had barely a mention - I expect all the reporters are in Libya - so this IISS Strategic Comment is welcome.
Link:http://www.iiss.org/publications/str...ical-upheaval/ Penultimate paragraph: Quote:
__________________
davidbfpo |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#296 | |
|
Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 33
|
From The Monkey Cage (www.themonkeycage.org)
http://www.themonkeycage.org/2011/03...down.html#more BLUF: Quote:
OC |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#297 | ||
|
Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hiding from the Dreaded Burrito Gang
Posts: 1,136
|
Meanwhile, from Page B3 of your local fish-wrapper...
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
A scrimmage in a Border Station A canter down some dark defile Two thousand pounds of education Drops to a ten-rupee jezail |
||
|
|
|
|
|
#298 | ||
|
Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hiding from the Dreaded Burrito Gang
Posts: 1,136
|
Quote:
And if so, who is behind these shennanigans? Quote:
Thread for reference : http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...715#post115715
__________________
A scrimmage in a Border Station A canter down some dark defile Two thousand pounds of education Drops to a ten-rupee jezail |
||
|
|
|
|
|
#299 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1
|
"Some experts believe that Egypt’s military advisors simply may not know anything other than the exertion of power through brute force. The current leaders running the country, after all, also ruled during Mubarak's three decades in office." Therefore, invariably, the military must remain in their barracks to squander public money in all their maneuvers, except politics.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#300 | ||
|
Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hiding from the Dreaded Burrito Gang
Posts: 1,136
|
Quote:
Fun fact : going price for a KPV is $15k. Quote:
__________________
A scrimmage in a Border Station A canter down some dark defile Two thousand pounds of education Drops to a ten-rupee jezail Last edited by AdamG; 10-13-2011 at 03:31 PM. |
||
|
|
|
![]() |
| Bookmarks |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| Terrorism in the USA:threat & response | SWJED | Law Enforcement | 207 | 3 Days Ago 11:33 PM |
| The David Kilcullen Collection (merged thread) | Fabius Maximus | Doctrine & TTPs | 351 | 07-31-2012 12:12 PM |
| After the Bin Laden op, what is the impact? Not on terrorism. Merged thread | Ray | Global Issues & Threats | 69 | 05-23-2012 11:51 AM |
| Matters Blackwater (Merged thread) | SWJED | PMCs and Entrepreneurs | 309 | 05-15-2011 08:34 PM |
| Revolutionary Patterns | TROUFION | Historians | 9 | 08-25-2007 04:27 AM |