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| Military - Other Echelons away from the trigger pullers, from operational art and theater logistics to service combat development to just plain FOBbits. |
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#1 | |||
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Small Wars Journal
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,956
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#2 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 489
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Not a good sign to say the least. I suspect he will be cashiered at the worst, reprimanded or just left to die on the vine.
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#3 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Posts: 16
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I'll be very curious to hear the opinions of the professionals on this board to this article. It's fascinating stuff, and it accurately reflects what I've been told repeatedly by the junior and midlevel officers I've talked to say, but being on the "outside" it's tough to know if these are widely held views.
__________________
------------------------------------------ Charles Sheehan-Miles Prayer at Rumayla: A Novel of the Gulf War www.sheehanmiles.com |
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#4 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,651
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Wow. Hard to believe LTC Yingling wants to stay on AD after this ... hard to imagine the fury he must be feeling to burn his career this way.
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#5 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Honolulu, Hawai'i
Posts: 411
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That LTC Yingling would publish this says a lot of good things about his candor, integrity, and belief in selfless service. His is doing what Patton and Eisenhower lacked the fortitude to do in the '20s and '30s (Forging the Thunderbolt: History of the U.s. Army's Armored Forces, 1917-45, Mildred Hanson Gillie).
It also speaks volumes about his frustration and concern for the future of the country as well as the Army. What also indictates a systemic problem in the Army is that the most likely response from the senior leadership will be to formally or informally punish him, rather than to consider the statements, decisions, and actions by the senior leaders that caused LTC Yingling to write his book and examine what led up to it. Easier to punish a whistle-blower than to fix what got the whistle blown. This demonstrates that the senior leaders have not learned a fundemental lesson of the media age; when things go wrong, don't cover up, tell the story early, and tell it yourself. Failure to follow this maxim consistently leads to scandal and public embarrassment. To be completely fair, I haven't read the book (but will) and I don't know LTC Yingling or if there were circumstances that might have caused him to write from 'less than pure' motives (passed over for promotion, black marks in his record - not saying there are, but that I don't know). Last edited by Van; 04-27-2007 at 12:52 PM. |
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#6 |
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 3,074
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He's echoing some of the things that Don Vandergriff has said (both on and off AD) regarding the Army personnel system. This is also the kind of thing you used to see in the old Army& Navy Journal. IMO it's long overdue.
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"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare." T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War |
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#7 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Fort Irwin, CA
Posts: 818
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__________________
Example is better than precept. |
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#8 |
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Small Wars Journal
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,956
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Here is a link to a Combat Studies Institute interview of LTC Yingling conducted last September.
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#9 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DeRidder LA
Posts: 3,949
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Tom |
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#10 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DeRidder LA
Posts: 3,949
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Even better...
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#11 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,710
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He is making some very serious accusations but, on the whole, I have to agree with a lot of them. I would hope that he will not end up hanging out in the breeze, but I expect that he will. I'm still digesting the article, but I have to agree with what he says about the personelle selection system.
Marc
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat... Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D. Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies, Senior Research Fellow, The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA Carleton University http://marctyrrell.com/ |
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#12 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DeRidder LA
Posts: 3,949
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My last on the interview...which you really do need to read to get a sensing of where the AFJ article comes from as in this:
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#13 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Fort Stewart
Posts: 222
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I've got to agree with RTK. Both as a SAMS guys and a future battalion commander, he has some pretty good credentials. I am very impressed with his candor. Since he was involved in Desert Storm, OIF I and most importantly, OIF III with 3 ACR and COL McMasters, he has a broad wealth of experience to call on. I don't see "sour grapes" as the motivation for this article. To be honest, I think he hit the nail on the head.
McMasters and his excellent book, "Dereliction of Duty" does a great job painting the picture of how poorly the General officers of the Vietnam era and the SecDef performed and the resulting diaster for our troops. I'm sure LTC Yingling was influenced by McMasters and felt like his article is highlighting what many junior and mid-level officers see as a major problem today. Take alook at the CSI interview provided by SWJED...its a great read. Alot of good lessons learned in there and you can sense the undercurrent of frustration with the higher ups. I'm interested to see what the Army reaction is going to be. I'm hoping that cooler heads will prevail and you won't see any repercussions against him. I'd be surprised, however, if he still took command of a battalion this summer. If he is punished in some way, however, it merely proves his point. Brave man for speaking out like this. I'm finishing up "The Praetorians", the sequal to "The Centurions" and I see alot of the same themes. Generals not wanting to adjust to the new realities of war, unable to demonstrate the mental agility to shift focus and the resulting chaos in which the troops must slog through, paying with blood because of the higher leadership's ineptitute.
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"But the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet withstanding, go out to meet it." -Thucydides |
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#14 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Fort Irwin, CA
Posts: 818
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He's only putting to paper what has been said in most every TOC and chow hall in the last 4 years.
__________________
Example is better than precept. |
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#15 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Washington, Texas
Posts: 305
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While he is obviously passionate about his point of view I think he would have been more persuasive if he had made his argument based on the competing strategies rather than personalities. Gen. Abizaid and Gen. Casey were believers in the "small footprint" strategy. To some degree that strategy worked in Afghanistan and was a failure in Iraq. The failure was not recognizing that the different battle spaces required different strategies.
While Yingling's passionate argument may effect his career, there have been some generals who have advanced because of their willingness to challenge positions of superiors. Norman Schwartzkopf did it as a young officer in Vietnam and Rifle De Long did it as a field grade officer with General Zinni. When you do it, it is important that you be right, obviously. |
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#16 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,182
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Yingling says, "Don't train on finding the enemy, train on finding friends and they will help you find your enemy". Fine, and as a dumb civilian, I ask, what does this friendship cost? What's the payback for them for helping to find enemies? Let me guess, they only want equal participation in Democracy, equal rights, equal opportunity, a purple finger and an Iraqi Thomas Jefferson. Of course they want security and I believe any cultivated friendship with a Sunni will have the payoff of identifying Shia' thugs and terrorists or anyone aiding said Shias. That should get the newly found friend first chance at new infractructure and jobs, right? Finding friends circumvents the dynamics of tribalism and religious sects but doesn't solve the problem, nor the problem of AQ playing each against the other. The cooperation of the Anbar Sheikhs is not a reflection of the democratic process or religious compromise. I can't be convinced to the contrary at this point in time. The selling point of COIN as a dynamic component in unifying Iraq into some homogeneous, cohesive, quasi-democratic entity capable of being a strategic friend to the US is still on the proving grounds. I want and hope it succeeds but you folks remain mission specific at this time and are not at the strategic table of foreign policy. I pray you are given a chair at that table. I presume Yingling will be talking to Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi who should be most receptive to him, and I'm not being sarcastic here either, just bitter.
I see that Yingling deployed again in March O5 for a another year's duty in Iraq. I'm wondering why it took such an obviously intelligent man another year to compile his thoughts and feelings into a report and said report manifests just as efforts are under the way to pull the plug on the whole shooting match. As a former L/Cpl and in going along with the format of openess and full disclosure, I would be interested in seeing a nice published report compiled by the rank and file of the Enlisted Men/Women on the Officer Corps in general serving in Iraq and Yingling in particular. They ain't fragging Officers, I know that much but not a whole lot more. |
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#17 | |||
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 86
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From LTC Yingling's article:
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#18 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Honolulu, Hawai'i
Posts: 411
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But this is the dichotomey of being an officer in a system of civilian control of the military. Even if the officer is objectively right, he or she is still subordinate to civilian authority under the constitution. Quote:
This makes an interesting exercise in game theory. He'll win big or lose big as far as an Army career goes. Do the rewards of success versus the cost of failure justify the strategy? Under what odds? With any kind of recognition for the book, failure in an Army career will be greatly mitigated by public speaking gigs and future writing, but that is also a gamble. Re: my previous remarks about LTC Yingling's motivation for writing; I was stating my ignorance, not attempting to impugne LTC Yingling's character. No offence to anyone intended. |
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#19 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Fort Irwin, CA
Posts: 818
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Is it so hard to believe that many of them are sick of going to funerals and figure by helping us out they may actually save their own life or the lives of their family?
I doubt that very much.
__________________
Example is better than precept. |
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#20 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 799
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RTK,
They'll be receptive because of the opportunity to collect sound bites they can deploy in the War on Bush. Learning anything from what he has to say, now that's a different matter...
__________________
John Wolfsberger, Jr. An unruffled person with some useful skills. Last edited by J Wolfsberger; 04-27-2007 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Correct spelling |
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