Who are the great generals?

[JD]

I recently read with interest the article 'A Failure in Generalship' posted on this website. It expresses the beleif that there is a crisis in the upper levels of the military leadership. It rasies the question who are the great generals, why were they great and why are we not producing their equivalents today?

I would be interested to hear from the wider forum and not just about the most well known but others like the Duke of Marlborough or Alfred the Great who may not be so well know outside Europe.

Comments?

JD

[BRUZ_LEE]

The "failure in Generalship" is in my opinion related to the process of high level leadership selection, better referred to as "careerism".
In todays' militaries, if you make a mistake, you get a bad evaluation and that spoils your career. So, to become a four-star general, you really are supposed to make no mistake for let's say at least 30 years of service. Which then means, just those who are not innovative and don't dare to do new things (and make mistakes) get into the highest ranks.
That's why one sees so many "bloodless" types of generals there.

Maybe one of the latest -rare- exceptions was USMC General Tony Zinni.

[Rifleman]

What are the qualities and attributes of a great general? I'm going to assume (dangerous, I know) that a great general needs to be a great strategist, correct?

If that's so, then America has produced many truly brilliant tacticians that were probably never general officer material. Not at all bad officers, just not general officer material. People like Robert Rogers and Nathan Bedford Forrest - in spite of their tactical ability - didn't seem to think on the strategic level.

Am I wrong there?

[JD]

For what its worth, I think John Monash and Rommel were the great generals of the 20th century but Alexander of Macedon was perhaps the greatest of all time. He proved his tactical genius over and over but it was his ability to create and hold an Empire by adopting and using local customs and institutions that marked him as great. Toward the end of his life the majority of his army was not Greek but Asian and after his death, his Asian conquests remained loyal while the Greek regions rebelled. He must have been a remarkable leader to have instilled such loyalty and formed such diverse regions of sworn enemies into an Empire.

A fundamental issue with western society is that we do not accept error. The Nike founder recently said that the problem with America is not that too many errors are made, but not enough. There is a saying in motor racing that if you aren't crashing once in a while, you're not really trying but society somehow expects senior military leaders to control something as chaotic as war and never make a mistake. Not only that, but they are unfarily held responsible for the actions of personnel over which they have little if any direct influence. Is it any wonder that in such an environment, senior leadership is unwilling to take bold decsions or devolve decsion making to lower levels?

Alexander would not have thrived in such an environment. He attacked a Persian Army at least seven times bigger than his own on a field of their choosing. He took up the customs of his Asian subjects. He defeated enemies in battles and then immediately reinstated them as vassal kings. But, unforgivably, he made mistakes. His army mutinied twice and he nearly destroyed his army in the deserts through his own mistakes in judgment and inadequate logistical planning. Can you imagine such a man keeping his job as a General today? And that's before discussing his relationship with Hephaistion!

[jastay3]

Actually I would say Alexander was primarily a tactician. To call him a strategist would be to misunderstand his character. He was not like the conventional picture of a strategist, manipulating military circumstance on a large scale to the advantage of his polity. He was a glory-hound, more like a viking going on a raid but on a gigantic scale. If he had been fighting for the interests of the Macedonian Empire then Carthage would have been his target after Persia, not India.

[RTK]

Some of my favorites:

Chesty Puller
George S. Patton
Omar Bradley
Erwin Rommel
Winfield Scott
Heinz Guederian
Oswald Lutz

[Ken White]

Belisaurius
Subutai
Anthony Wayne
Colin Campbell
John Buford
Galusha Pennypacker*
Erwin Rommel
Bill Slim
Matthew Ridgeway
Erich Von Manstein
Bruce Palmer

Okay, not a great strategist -- but neither were Puller or Bradley but Galusha P. has always been a favorite...

[Uboat509]

I woudl be remiss not to mention LTG Yarborough. I have also always liked Von Manteuffel.

SFC W

[Anthony Hoh]

I would have to go with General Mills, because we all know that sugar smacks rock!

But to quantify who the great generals of today are by comparing them to the standard of excellence we have known in the past is impossible.

I doubt most of the generals and leaders that you all have mentioned thus far, were held in the same esteem when they were actually in command. History has a way of making us forget faults.

I think we will have to wait another 50 years for someone else to decide who the great generals of our time really were.

[RTK]

Originally Posted by Uboat509

I woudl be remiss not to mention LTG Yarborough.

I feel bad for not mentioning him now. I should have. He had so much to do with making USSF what they are.

Originally Posted by Anthony Hoh

I think we will have to wait another 50 years for someone else to decide who the great generals of our time really were.

True, but we can still remember who the douchebags of the past are as well.

Custer, Bragg, Westmoreland

[jonSlack]

Originally Posted by RTK

True, but we can still remember who the douchebags of the past are as well.

Custer, Bragg, Westmoreland

lol

Well put.

[Mark O'Neill]

My five cents:

Napoleon

Monash

Guderian

Zhukov

Giap

[slapout9]

American Army
James M. Gavin I know that surprises everybody here He literally wrote the book on Airborne Warfare....the first FM was done by him and he believed the division to be nothing but an extension of the calvary division, but due to the technical limitations at the time it had to become an Airborne Infantry division. Today the term Air-Mech Division is much closer to what he had in mind. RTK you feeling me man

USMC
Chesty Puller
Tough and had tremendous common sense.

British Army
J.C. Fuller my definition of a thinking general. He wrote a great book about Generalship it's disease and it's cure. Can not remember the exact title.

German army
Erwin Rommel A professional and a leader of the highest order.

[RTK]

Originally Posted by slapout9

American Army
James M. Gavin I know that surprises everybody here He literally wrote the book on Airborne Warfare....the first FM was done by him and he believed the division to be nothing but an extension of the calvary division, but due to the technical limitations at the time it had to become an Airborne Infantry division. Today the term Air-Mech Division is much closer to what he had in mind. RTK you feeling me man

USMC
Chesty Puller
Tough and had tremendous common sense.

British Army
J.C. Fuller my definition of a thinking general. He wrote a great book about Generalship it's disease and it's cure. Can not remember the exact title.

German army
Erwin Rommel A professional and a leader of the highest order.

Your list is awesome. I agree with you on Gavin. His vision for the Airborne was that they were a supporting effort for a larger main effort. The 82nd doesn't see themselves that way anymore.

[Mark O'Neill]

Originally Posted by slapout9

American Army
James M. Gavin I know that surprises everybody here He literally wrote the book on Airborne Warfare....the first FM was done by him and he believed the division to be nothing but an extension of the calvary division, but due to the technical limitations at the time it had to become an Airborne Infantry division. Today the term Air-Mech Division is much closer to what he had in mind. RTK you feeling me man

USMC
Chesty Puller
Tough and had tremendous common sense.

British Army
J.C. Fuller my definition of a thinking general. He wrote a great book about Generalship it's disease and it's cure. Can not remember the exact title.

German army
Erwin Rommel A professional and a leader of the highest order.

Hey Slapout,

Surely, to be a 'great' general, the general should have been at general rank, and commanded troops on operations at that rank, in a war.

By my reckoning you only have one wartime general on your list.

It is my opinion that distinguished service on operations in the junior ranks , whilst noteworthy, is not the same as exercising the art of successful generalship in war.

Cheers,

Mark

[SWJED]

Surely, to be a 'great' general, the general should have been at general rank, and commanded troops on operations at that rank, in a war.

... but I'll throw General Anthony Zinni into the frying pan here - in my humble opinion a great general who may not have led CENTCOM in a 'war' (by traditional standards) but contained Saddam while picking up the diplomatic slack (in the Middle East) that the DoS could not or would not provide during his tenure.

Via Wikepedia, his career as a general officer:

His initial general officer assignment was as the Deputy Director of Operations at the U.S. European Command. In 1991, he served as the Chief of Staff and Deputy Commanding General of Combined Task Force Operation Provide Comfort during the Kurdish relief effort in Turkey and Iraq. He also served as the Military Coordinator for Operation Provide Hope, the relief effort for the former Soviet Union. In 1992-93, he served as the Director for Operations for the Unified Task Force Somalia for Operation Restore Hope. Also in 1993, he served as the Assistant to the U.S. Special Envoy to Somalia during Operation Continued Hope. Zinni was assigned as the Deputy Commanding General, U.S. Marine Corps Combat Development Command, Quantico, Virginia, from 1992 to 1994.

From 1994 to 1996, he served as the Commanding General, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. During early 1995, Zinni served as Commander of the Combined Task Force for Operation United Shield, protecting the withdrawal of U.N. forces from Somalia.

From September 1996 until August 1997, Zinni served as the Deputy Commander in Chief, United States Central Command. His final tour was from August 1997 to September 2000 as the Commander in Chief, United States Central Command, MacDill Air Force Base, Florida. He organized Operation Desert Fox, a series of airstrikes against Iraq during December 1998, with the stated purpose of degrading Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction program.

[slapout9]

Good Morning Mark, I think the list includes two, Gavin and Rommel were both war time generals. Puller was a colonel in war WW2 and Korea I think Fuller was a Lt. Col(not sure) you may know that.

I agree and disagree with you somewhat about having to be a wartime general to be great. I think you should also take a look and how they tried to shape their respective armies when they came into positions of power that allowed them to influence and change future developments. Did he learn his lessons of war and try to improve their organizations so the lessons would not have to be relearned? Or did he just set back and rest on their laurels so to speak.? My opinion anyway.

I almost added Zhukov and he should be on the list.

[Rank amateur]

From this amateur:

Powell, though he doesn't seem too popular here.
Rommel, especially since he was involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler
Lee
Hannibal
Sun Tzu wasn't a real person but whoever wrote The Art of War should be on the list.

I think Monty was vastly over rated.

Originally Posted by Mark O'Neill

Surely, to be a 'great' general, the general should have been at general rank, and commanded troops on operations at that rank, in a war.

Not if you agree with Sun Tzu that the best outcome is too achieve your objective without fighting.

[SWJED]

May deserve some slack here - yea Little Big Horn was not his finest moment. That said, there are many who credit Yellow Hair with saving our Union via vs. J.E.B. Stuart at Gettysburg... Food for thouight...

[jonSlack]

Additions:

Grant, Robert E Lee, Jeb Stuart.

Orde Wingate

And of course, an Engineer, E.D. Swinton.