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Small Wars Journal
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,875
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The Basrah Gambit – Defining Moment for Iraq or the Jaysh al-Mahdi? By Malcolm Nance at SWJ Blog.
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#2 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,040
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After reading this I find myself with some questions
1- Considering that something like this did have to happen at some point (as the author points out) and that JAM did as expected (which is to say disappeared before incurring too many losses). Then also taking into account that either militia Badr or Mahdi both have Iranian connections. Does anything change the fact that it had to happen and at least in large part seems smarter to have done so when there would be more rather than less backup available if needed. 2. Am I mistaken and have the militias been effectively providing for and caring for their area and that everything that a government should do was being done by these hero thugs in Basra: if so why did the actual Iraqi government have to go in there and screw it all up? Am I missing something here. 3. Although I did hear and see that Sadr called a ceasefire I don't remember hearing that the IA/ IP have stopped moving through the area and securing neighborhoods. Are we to believe that Maliki doesn't realize exactly what this means and let's not forget that this operation was Iraqi planned and although support may be provided all in all it would seem that it will be dealt with in more of an Iraqi manner than what might be done in an American operation. 4. How exactly should this have been handled since everyone seems so certain that this wasn't the right way.
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#3 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,390
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#4 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York, NY
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If you're going to whack the hornet's nest, and yes it did need whacking, then at least make sure (1) the hornets don't win (2) you don't just go after just one species of hornet when there are at least four that need to get dead.
What Sadr has done is show that his militia can stand up to and defeat the best efforts of the Iraqi Army, that he can turn the violence on and off even in the face of an offensive by said army, and thus can control the streets of southern Iraq and Baghdad even from a perch in Qom. Maliki looks pathetic while the Iranians preen as the one side that all Shia factions can go to for intercession. We'll see how this plays out, but right now it's hard to imagine the last few days as any kind of success. |
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#5 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Insurgency University
Posts: 142
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![]() Seriously though ... My assertion is that this was not part of the surge but a completely different component of a North-South offensive. The MNF-I and the Kurd IA Divisons would clear Mosul while Maliki would be give the chance to use the Badr Corps, er, I mean, the "Iraqi Army" and police to clear Basrah. The ruse of going after only the "rogue" JAM units surely weakened the JAM but no one who has spent anytime there (I spent almost a year in Basrah and all of my Iraqi bosyguards are from there) was going to think that the JAM was not wildly popular. they are more popular than the central government, but not because they provide services. They provide a gunweilding voice and see that the future could bear great promise for them. The JAM, the Hizb'Dawa and the Badr Corps have been banging away to gain dominence for five years and this last year the JAM has made headway. Granted, the Garamsheh tribe runs all of the guns and crime, and this is fueled by the money that still flows from the tolerated Ali Baba port at Mina Abu Floos. The big question is what made Maliki think Shiites were going to really fight hard against the JAM when the JAMs could come to their family's front door any given night and kill them all? Thats why policemen surrendered ... for their family's sake. Everyone knows everyone in Southern Iraq. Quote:
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Putting Foot to Al Qaeda Ass Since 1993 |
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#6 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sandbox
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Malcom,
Great blog, Welcome back! Tom
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#7 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 567
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I've noticed a number of editorials that say all of the fighting took place amongst anti AQI groups. That could be a big factor in the domestic debate.
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#8 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Insurgency University
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All Shiite groups are anti-alQaeda ... they're Shiite! AQ thinks Shiites are apostates anyway which, by Takfiri definition, they're Kufr and that means any Shiite can be killed at anytime.
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Putting Foot to Al Qaeda Ass Since 1993 |
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#9 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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- but when we're moving troops to take part in inter shiite battles it's a lot harder to argue that "Iraq is the central front in the war on terror."
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#10 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,390
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Not that, even were that 'central front' statement remotely sensible, would it be negated by the fact that we're moving troops to take part in inter Shiite battles. That occurs on almost a daily basis there. Given a fight of any kind in Iraq, we're almost certainly going to be at least peripherally involved. Look at Najaf in '04. What difference does that make? |
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#11 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 567
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I'm an ad guy. "Not remotely sensible" is what I do. Not remotely sensible can also decide elections. Just my opinion, but I think "bring home the troops who are not fighting Al Qeada" could win votes.
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#12 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,040
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In other words if you want me to do something because it's what you feel, believe whichever fine your the populous and ultimately you rule, However if you require this without consideration of it's very likely aftershocks and the very good possibility that you or your family may suffer from it in the long run then it's on you. If on the other hand you are like many others who wish to push for what they want without being willing to accept responsibility for its outcomes, then Should the decision be quite that simple?
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Cogitationis poenam nemo patitur |
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#13 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,390
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IOW, there's a time and place for not being sensible and one for being very sensible. It's sort of important not to conflate the two... That doesn't mean for a second that bringing the troops out precipitously would be sensible and I'll also suggest that it might not buy nearly as many votes as you think. Further, the majority of those it did buy would be voting against a party, person or issue rather than for the issue cited. I don't know of anyone who isn't ready for Iraq and Afghanistan to be over and done with. They aren't and won't be for a while. Why we're in either place is not irrelevant because the 'why' is directly related to the failure of four previous administrations from both parties to confront an obvious threat. That's hard for the western mind to grasp but it's harsh reality. A precipitous departure from either place will be touted as another failure. That, too is hard for western minds to grasp. Whether you or I would have done it the way it was is immaterial; it was done that way. What the future holds is murky but I'll wager one thing -- if we leave early, we'll be back there (and it will be far harder) during your lifetime. Sort of like Ron said above -- gotta think about the aftershocks... |
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#14 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 567
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John Kerry thought that every issue should be analyzed and explained in agonizing detail. (If I could've figured out a way to get him elected I'd be a lot smarter - and richer - than I am.
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#15 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: All over - very transient.
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I'm unclear on some assumptions that seem to underpin much of the discussion about recent activity in Basra and Nassiriya. My impression is that the following are generally accepted as true:
1. JAM/Sadr is no better or worse than Badr/ISCI in terms of the security situation and any possibility of a future stable Iraq 2. Some type of action had to be taken against JAM and/or Badr in Basra, at some point in the near future 3. JAM has inflicted more damage upon the ISF than the ISF has inflicted upon JAM If 1 and 3 are accepted as true, could someone please explain why? |
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#16 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York, NY
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1) ISCI/SCIRI began life as a creation of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. It was originally a breakoff faction of al-Dawa which split mainly because its members chose to follow Ayatollah Khomeini's doctrine of vilayet-i-fiqh, or clerical rule. It may have achieved some independent political life since 2003, but its IRGC ties are strong and well-documented. Its political position regarding Iraqi federalism (advocating for a strong southern federal region with near-independent powers) is in line with Iranian interests.
3) Who knows proper casualty figures - I doubt anyone does. What matters is that the ISF was unable to seize or maintain control over any Mahdi Army strongholds in Basra until Sadr told the militia to stand down, while Sadr's forces were able to launch attacks throughout the south and put the ISF on the run in numerous locations including in Nasiriyah. I saw TV footage of Mahdi Army militia strolling about in broad daylight as late as yesterday, as well as several Mahdi Army fighters driving captured ISF hummvees. That Maliki extended his "deadline", took the deal, as well as claiming all along that he never targeted the Sadr Current specifically, shows that the ISF did not exactly sweep all before it. |
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#17 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: All over - very transient.
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#18 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,298
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My own assumption is that Iran's maximal solution is a stable but weak Iraq which which it can dominate through its tight relationships with Shiite religious parties and the Iraqi Kurdish parties. The best way to accomplish this is through a strongly federalist constitution and a weak central government. Quote:
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#19 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,040
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And I think we'll find that this may come down more on the side of an IO/IE failure on the part of ISAF than on actual capability to accomplish the mission.
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#20 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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The NYT has more info - via the UK - on the fighting.
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