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#1 | |
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Small Wars Journal
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,956
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#2 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Washington, Texas
Posts: 305
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Biddle seems to ignore the evidence of the value of an expanded Iraqi army. If he reviewed the weekly press briefings in Baghdad, he would learn among other things that the tip line from Iraqi citizens has gone up significantly in the last year, but the biggest increase in tips are the walkin who contact Iraqi units patroling in their area. Actionable intelligence from these tips is running at about 98 percent. It has led to the killing or capture of several enemy terrorist and the destruction of about 1,500 weapons caches in the last year according to Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch. These units have also gotten good reviews from senior commanders for their performance after the mosque attack.
There are obvious still some problems in Iraq. I think police corruption is still a problem. However, it is al Qaeda in Iraq that is having the biggest problem right now as its forces are targeted by just about everyone in the country. It is a force on the run at the moment. I do agree that the US representatives in Iraq were too passive for awhile. As the writer suggest that is no longer the case. |
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#3 |
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Small Wars Journal
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,956
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12 March Washington Post - Vietnam and Iraq: Looking Back and Looking Ahead. Articles covers details on a 10 - 11 March conference on Vietnam.
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#4 | |
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Small Wars Journal
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,956
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12 March Associated Press - Haig: Vietnam Mistakes Repeated in Iraq.
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#5 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Richmond, Missouri
Posts: 94
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I was watching a History channel program on the Tet offensive this morning. There are some disturbing parallels. At the end of 1966 and early 1967 the talk in Iraq was positive - all the numbers seemed to indicate we were on the road to success and there was talk of bringing the troops home. Then came Tet. The fact was, we had been lulled into a false sense of security only to have our authority challenged once again. Nobody could believe it was happening.
Some say it was media coverage of Tet that caused a loss of support in the states. That may be true but I think a greater impact was that Tet gave the south Vietnamese the impression that the US forces were unable to protect them and so we lost the support of more friends there. Tet was a tactical loss for the north and a gross miscalculation on their part but strategically it paid huge dividends. It was similar in Fallujah at one point - the thought that we were winning only to be confronted by a sudden uprising and then the people of Fallujah began to have doubts about our ability to protect them.... I think Fallujah may be just the tip of a bigger iceberg. The numbers may be encouraging and I am glad to hear them but I think it would be disastrous to read too much into those numbers.
__________________
Mark Discuss at: The Irregulars Visit at: UW Review "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G. K. Chesterton |
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#6 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Occupied Virginia
Posts: 242
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It can be hard to judge a war by numbers or briefings. As these things move up they tend to be distorted by the point of view of whoever is passing them on. Also you have the problem of not always knowing what is important until you can see it in hindsight; by all of the standards of the day the US was doing quite well in Vietnam.
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#7 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Washington, Texas
Posts: 305
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Tet was a disaster for the communist everywhere but in the media. After Tet the insurgency was essentially defeated, and while the communist made a few feable attempts at a general uprising after Tet, they were defeated in much the same manner as Tet. Gaip actully opposed the offensive because he knew they would lose and he only got roped into planning it anyway after the leader of communist forces in the south was killed in a bombing raid. He knew they would lose militarily and had no idea that the media would turn it into a strategic victory for his side.
Too many still cling to the idea that the insurgency defeated the forces in the south. In fact Gaip switched from an insurgency or raiding strategy to a combat persisting strategy and his first attack onder the new strategy was also defeated with the help of US aircraft. His second attempt at a conventional victory was successful after Democrats in Congress reneged on a pledge to the South Vietnamese and withdrew funding of their defense operations and refused to let the US military use its air assets to help them. I was referring to the objective data in the briefings. You should check it out. MNFI will also supply you with a copy of the powerpoints slides if you request it. But most analogies to Vietnam are way off the wall anyway. In Vietnam we were fighting division size units. In fact the first significant combat involved a battalion going up against a communist division. At Khe Sanh there were several NVA divisions getting hammered as they beseiged the combat base. In Iraq by contrast, the enemy is incapable of massing much more than a platoon and every time he has tried it has been defeated with terrible losses. Unlike the communist in Vietnam, the enemy in Iraq is incapable of attacking a defended position much less holding one. That is one reason why you seldom see reports of attacks on US positions in Iraq. At this point the enemy is primarily relying on booby trap attacks on convoys, when he attacks US troops at all. His primary focus as in the attacks today, are against non combatants, or in some cases recruits signing up for jobs with the Iraqi army or police. These attacks have failed to deter the Iraqis from signing up for these jobs. The main similarity to the war in Iraq is the anti war left still wants to lose, and the media is doing its best to help them achieve that objective. In a word the reporting, with a new notable exceptions, has been as bad as it was during the Tet offensive. Please read Big Story for an excellent analysis of the faulty reporting during Tet. Most of the exceptions to the poor reporting, are done by reporters who are embedded with the troops and see a more accurate picture of the war than they can from behind the curtain in their Baghdad hotel room. |
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#8 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,833
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Merv, whether you like it or not, you just made the author’s point, which is Iraq isn't Vietnam, so don’t make the assumption that the same touchy feely counterinsurgency doctrine will have similar effects. The author argues his paper very well. You state that the Iraqi Army is working because locals are turning over Al Qaeda members to them. First, that isn’t a measure of effect in itself if the locals are Shi’a. Furthermore even the Sunni have been turning over AQI members to us for some time. That isn’t a result of Iraqification, but piss poor AQI tactics and a message that doesn’t resound in Iraq. AQI is only one protagonist, and probably the lesser one when it comes to political stability. You then stated that the enemy doesn’t hold territory, but that isn’t correct. The ACF own neighborhoods in Baghdad, and they own towns and cities that we don’t, just as they owned Fallujah and Tal Afar for awhile. They can’t hold it when we decide to take it, but then they simply move somewhere else and set up shop. They won't maneuver on us, they simply flow all around us to get to their primary targets the new Iraqi government and the citizens of Iraq. The underlying point is that the enemy still needs to be defeated, which means we need more troops and need to be more aggressive in the fight. That doesn’t mean leveling cities, but aggressively providing security throughout all of Iraq, denying safe havens. You can’t provide safe havens with an Iraqi Army composed of Shi’a units and Kurdish units (with the exception of few units) which have severe ethic biases (the author’s point). The bottom line is we are overly focused on attempting to win the hearts and minds through civil affairs projects, when what the people really want is basic security. Our CA work will be for naught, if we don’t get back into the fight. The decisions being made today aren’t based on sound strategy, but rather expedient politics. |
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#9 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Washington, Texas
Posts: 305
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Bill, I do not disagree with your points about Iraq. My comments on Tet and Vietnam were in response to some of the comments posted and not to the original article. My disagreement with the original article was primarily focused on the authors position that increasing the size of the Iraqi Army ws a mistake. I think there is substantial evidence that increasing the size of the Iraqi army has helped us get a better force to space ratio and permitted more take and hold operations. It has also significantly increased our intelligence gathering ability. Reports also indicate that the Sunnis are signing up for the army now too, and much of its leadership is Sunni.
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#10 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Richmond, Missouri
Posts: 94
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Merv, I suspect you are referring to my post. But I think you missed something I said on which we agree - Tet was a failure for the communists in itself. But, ultimately, it proved to be the turning point in the war that led to defeat for the south. Tactical failures can and do often lead to strategic success. There is more to winning than the sum of the outcome of battles.
__________________
Mark Discuss at: The Irregulars Visit at: UW Review "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G. K. Chesterton |
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#11 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 262
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"You cannot win against an insurgency that springs from the population," said Jack Valenti, former special assistant to President Lyndon B. Johnson. "There's never been an insurgency that doesn't prevail against a mighty power."
...except for Greece, Kenya, Malaya, the Philippines, El Salvador, Guatemala, etc., etc. by the way, what were the KKK, Weather Underground, Black Panthers for Self-Defense, etc.? Were these not insurgent groups? ...why do we continue to drag out of the closet folks that failed in their duties 25-40 years ago to save us from ourselves now? |
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#12 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 102
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Just reread Biddle. Some interesting thoughts on Iraqi communalism, but superficial to downright erroneous on the VN side of the analogy. On Biddle's "competing" for hearts and minds: We realized at some point that Thompson/Duncanson were right: that the Vietnamese peasant was not a free agent whose loyalties went to the highest bidder. (I'm reminded of a Fall paper in which he talks derisively about the US ag adviser who teaches improved hog farming competing with the VC who engages in calculated beheadings and disembowellings--Who wins the competition?). We all (those who were involved in this) knew all too many villages/hamlets oozing in agricultural prosperity whose security was just plain lousy (vci active, etc.), and all too many instances where increased prosperity simply meant that the VC tax rate increased commensurate with the ability to pay. So--The US came to the conclusion that, if stereotyped WHAM begs the question, the surest way to anyone's heart is to protect him and his family from violence and intimidation. Hence pacification's (and CORDS's) core, overwhelming emphasis on getting the territorial forces to do their job better. (Similarly, we well recognized the intimate connection between affording protection to the populace and getting rid of the vci, but the GVN remained "less seized" with this.) Since territorial security was envisioned as requiring continuing US military support, this worked as long as the locals were convinced that we would be around for the forseeable future. Once they realized (not rocket science) that we weren't, the dreaded "A" word again raised its ugly head--accommodation--and backsliding occurred.
Re Biddle on Vietnamization: One can only hope that Iraqization is not a conscious emulation of Vietnamization. The latter rapidly evolved into a political ploy to cover withdrawal not tied to the situation on the ground--and a means of maintaining a modicum of order while we scrambled for the exit. I recommend to readers an incisive paper on Vietnamization by Maj.Tull, USMC, which can be easily found in the swj Reference Library under VN War. Last edited by Mike in Hilo; 04-15-2006 at 01:31 AM. |
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