Is US Fighting Force Big Enough?

[Ken White]

sort of blithering idiocy are never going to have to serve in their schemes?

There's a reason for that. Michael Kinsley's article in that series you linked is on target; Stengel is out to lunch and his math is flaky -- both on the costs and on the numbers of people.

We produce more people than we need for public service, all forms, so how do you determine who serves where and who doesn't serve at all...

[Tom Odom]

We produce more people than we need for public service, all forms, so how do you determine who serves where and who doesn't serve at all...

Starship Troopers--the Heinlein novel and NOT the movie

Seriously I agree that peeps throw these things out w/o fully engaging brain groups

But I also believe that levels of Federal benefits should be earned versus inherited. One example that comes to mind immediately is college loans. Another that comes to mind deals with the current discussion on expanding the foreign service. Make national service a prerequisite for entry into the Foreign Service. Many FSOs already do that as I am sure you know.

Best

Tom

PS

I am very much a Heinlein model fan in an ideal world but it will never happen lest the bugs actually send a big rock at earth

Hopes for any form of national service are probably equally Quixotic but man must dream

[reed11b]

Blah.. I have always been romanticized by the concept of national service, but I agree with Ken. Programs to eliminate college loan debt for graduates and programs to allow either grants or expanded loans for those still in school, combined with more exciting and fulfilling volunteer options would increase the number of individuals wanting to perform national service, but I don't think you can make it compulsory in a good way. Again..blah.
Reed
Blah is how I feel, i.e. dissapointment that the reality of National Service does not equal my romaticized version of it. It is NOT refering to Mr. Odom's post in any way.

[Ken White]

Originally Posted by Tom Odom

Starship Troopers--the Heinlein novel and NOT the movie.

philosophy -- and the unfortunate fact that it isn't likely to be seen in our lifetimes...

But I also believe that levels of Federal benefits should be earned versus inherited. One example that comes to mind immediately is college loans. Another that comes to mind deals with the current discussion on expanding the foreign service. Make national service a prerequisite for entry into the Foreign Service. Many FSOs already do that as I am sure you know.

I also agree strongly with that. A lot of Federal benefits are simply vote buying schemes enacted by a venal and stupid -- not ignorant; they are not ignorant and they are shrewd but they are stupid -- Congress critters. Most of those benefits don't need to exist and those that should need to be earned, not donated.

I sort of agree with Reed also:

"...Blah is how I feel, i.e. dissapointment that the reality of National Service does not equal my romaticized version of it."

Nothing wrong with what you say, we ought to be able to do some form of service. Romanticizing and dreaming are okay, wouldn't improve without that but old cold reality and the selfishness of people sometimes bite. Unpleasant bite at that...

[Tom Odom]

But jousting at windmills offers a certain release...

I will continue to dream

[DavidvsTheWorld]

And I also agree that Kinsley's article offers a more realistic perspective than Stengel's. It seems any sort of compuslory service is unrealistic on multiple levels. However, should not further incentives be investigated in order to pull in a higher number of participants? And if so, do any of Stengel's suggestions merit further investgation/implementation? (Acknowledging that the money math is probably way off base.)

[Ken White]

Originally Posted by DavidvsTheWorld

...However, should not further incentives be investigated in order to pull in a higher number of participants? And if so, do any of Stengel's suggestions merit further investgation/implementation? (Acknowledging that the money math is probably way off base.)

fix our education system to teach kids how to be functioning adults with some basic knowledge, a sense of what is achievable, knowledge that life is not fair, everybody is not equal and never will be and with no %^&$#@* self esteem; self confidence, yes -- self esteem, no.

As for his ideas:

The Baby Bond idea is a disastrous approach; it will 'cost' Billions and accomplish little. A year of service would be effectively a waste; most jobs would require nearly that much time in training for effectiveness, thus you'd be training people for a job they wouldn't be around to perform. Those who are inclined to volunteer will do so without the money; those who are not will not do so for the money -- which Congress will pilfer in any event...

National service as a cabinet position. Sheesh. The Cabinet is too big now; we've already ruined education in this country with a Department of Education; our housing and cities have become totally dysfunctional since the inception of HUD; Health Care costs have gone through the roof and one of the worlds better rates of several health statistics had gone into the cellar since HHS came on scene. We don't even want to get started on Homeland Security. By Stengel's own admission, volunteerism is high and climbing -- ask yourself why he wants to ruin that?

Education Corps? One problem in education today is incompetent teachers. He wants to put other people in the mix, people who have basically been coerced one way or another to be there. Smart...

The Rapid Reserve Corps is a terrible idea. FEMA can do what it has to do and is supposed to do -- it cannot do things that are beyond its capability as it was thought it should have performed during Katrina. Not as it should have performed but as it was thought it should have...

The National Service Academy is sheer idiocy -- does this guy not realize that our kids should be reading the Federalist Papers in Middle School; that public schools are failing because a lot of partly educated fools have destroyed US education. He wants a government run school to fix that...

I'm dubious about asking Baby Boomers to do much of anything; thus far they seem to have screwed up most everything they've touched. I think they should be encouraged to retire and stay quiet.

On the plus side, the Summer of Service is a good idea; the Health Corps and the Green Corps may depending on how and where implemented be worthwhile. All on a voluntary basis. Abraham Lincoln pointed out in 1863 that involuntary servitude was a bad idea.

[William F. Owen]

Originally Posted by DavidvsTheWorld

However, should not further incentives be investigated in order to pull in a higher number of participants?

I've mulled this for some time. "Serve a full 3 years and get 22% income tax relief for life etc."

...but the devil is in the detail. Also, do you really want to attract the anal, life planning, future conscious kid who is thinking about 22% income tax. Probably not.

[Entropy]

I love Heinlein as much as the next guy, and there is a certain attractiveness to the Heinlein federal service model presented in Starship Troopers, but I fear the reality would simply be a new class-based system and a new "federal service" aristocracy.

[Tom Odom]

Originally Posted by Entropy

I love Heinlein as much as the next guy, and there is a certain attractiveness to the Heinlein federal service model presented in Starship Troopers, but I fear the reality would simply be a new class-based system and a new "federal service" aristocracy.

We could be Dukes, Earls, and Barons.

I like it

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by Tom Odom

We could be Dukes, Earls, and Barons.

I like it

It's good to be the King!