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#1 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 152
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Press and "Psy Ops" to merge at NATO Afghan HQ: sources John Hemming, Reuters, 290628EST Nov 08 Article link Quote:
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#2 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,438
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Quote:
So long as the commander makes it clear that the PA guy is answerable directly to him, but that the IO folks coordinate directly with the PA guy, then there is no issue. There was significant risk of the PA guy assuming a subordinate role to me because he was not an officer or senior NCO and he administratively was "mine." But I treated him as a peer and reminded him often that he belonged to the commnader, not to me or the S-3. Putting PA subordinate to IO or PSYOP folks would be dangerous and would likely undermine their credibility. So long as PA is treated as a primary staff officer, then putting PA and PSYOP in the same cell, next to each other, can work very well. They need to coordinate directly and often. I'm surprised that it didn't happen sooner. Last edited by Schmedlap; 11-29-2008 at 06:45 PM. |
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#3 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 3,567
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Others may agree with the Reuters terminology used here - I'd use the same terms differently.
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As to white information (e.g., VOA, BBC), enlightened self-interest over the long haul requires truth-telling so that the white outputs retain absolute credibility to their audiences - a chartacteristic lacking in Radio Moscow if you kept up with the twists and turns of the SovCom party line. As to black information (the ultimate dream being a planted piece in Pravda, Izvestia, Tass or RM), that also has to be true - or, if false, at least close enough to the black output's usual agitprop line to be credible. The best black story, e.g., a true story that the SovComs wanted to keep secret, would have been one published in one of their party organs (usually local third world). The gray part of the spectrum leaves more room for deception and falsity of the story. The rest of the Reuters story involves intra-agency and inter-agency issues, which have always been a problem - as to which, I am dumb.
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#4 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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more like.
![]() That's a bad article and IMO it constitutes gray propaganda for the opponents. May not have been the intent but it is the practical effect. Schmedlap has the separation of church and state correctly ascribed and the Reuters lad merely shows his ignorance probably with an assist by his Editor. ![]() The article does wrongly equate "black operations" with outright deception. Deception may or may not be the aim. The spectrum of white, gray and black propaganda -- not information -- does not hinge on the covertness of the ultimate source of the information but rather to the intent of the effort. White is effectively a totally honest effort to persuade; gray appears to support one view while actually subtly supporting another and black is aimed at total confusion and may be an honest or a totally dishonest statement that puts the opponent in a bad light. There are some technical errors in that but it's an effective simplification. The agency or origin has little to do with the shading, the intent is the determinant. The NATO ally quibbling comes from euro social democratic governments who (a) aren't terribly bright when it comes to affaires militaire and (b) object to most anything the US does as a matter of course -- even if they want the US to do it so they don't have to. To believe that one can be totally honest in reporting the all the 'news' while the opponent is doing the exact opposite is the height of naiveté. More correctly, to think that the 'news' is not part and parcel of the Information Operation effort and that total separation is possible is just stupid. Colombia is an example of how to do it. The Colombian Armed forces have a couple of hot teams that immediately go to the site of any incident involving the Armed Forces that may cause adverse publicity, document it thoroughly and honestly then rapidly get it to the media -- with evidence. That's a PA effort, not an information shaping effort -- yet it undeniably shapes the news. Such intertwining is absolutely unavoidable and to act like it can be avoided is dishonest in itself. Excessively sanctimonious, also... ![]() As for this: Quote:
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#5 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Rancho La Espada, Blanchard, OK
Posts: 1,036
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(at least when I was in the business - and I don't believe it has changed) defined the colors of propaganda in terms of source. White acknowledged the source; gray simply did not acknowledge it; black attributed it to a source other than the true one. US military Psyop doctrine never knowingly produced false information. Deception ops were not Psyop but were intel ops. That is not to say that Psyop resources could not be used but they were not run by Psyop organizations.
My favorite example of a black propaganda op is one I was told about that took Soviet anti-Islam propaganda designed for use in Soviet Central Asia and reproduced it verbatim for use in independent Muslim countries attributing it to the Soviet Embassy or local communist parties or both. ![]() Cheers JohnT |
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#6 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 3,567
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about the last three posts - something about being separated by a common language - or, in this case, a common color scheme.
You all realize that everyone is right here. Hat tip to JTF for his black example.
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#7 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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#8 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Posts: 120
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If everyone got over their stupid bloody capbadge issues and focused on the actual mission it is plain to see the there is no argument against having them work together. Doesn't mean they do each other's job ... just means they know what the hell is going on in the domain in which they are meant to be the SME. I manage to be an IO guy/PA guy/PSYOPer and general ops planner all in one (and a pretty good looking one a that). Why the hell is it always so difficult for everyone else? |
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#9 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,438
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I wasn't on MNF-I staff, but I had high visibility of - for lack of a better term - our "IO" in Iraq. I reject even the most guarded suggestion that we are "losing the information war" or any similar claim. The fact that many people hold that pessimistic view is a tribute either to
a) our good OPSEC b) the crappy intelligence gathering and propaganda development of our adversaries c) both Mullah Atari sure was a nice guy to reign in his militia in 2007. Lucky us! Good thing that AQI pushed their luck with the Sunnis - we were getting antsy waiting around and doing nothing, waiting for something to change the situation. And, of course, praise Allah that the pan-Arab media's negative coverage of US operations in Iraq significantly moderated (even before Obama burst onto the scene) - that was probably their "turn the other cheek" reaction to our unilateral, overbearing ways. When the history of this war is written, after current operations are declassified, the skill and cunning of our leaders in navigating the media, culture, and political realm of Iraq since early 2007 will be as impressive to behold as the the mismanagement of the first three years was mind-boggling. |
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#10 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Posts: 120
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Quote:
.What I was trying to say is getting everyone back in the one room and working together is a fantastic success (but I doubt that it will last long now that it has negative media coverage). I've seen it work and I've also seen it not work when FA assignments and sheep stations get in the way of commonsense. As for 2007 ... my experience in that year is the other side of the NAG. Having said that I did sit through a pretty good brief from the MNC-I IO chief at that period a couple of months ago who reconfirmed all the lessons we learned in 04/05. I still find it amazing that we can continue kinetic ops, log, int etc every time we have a headquarters changeover but we always manage to start the IO game from scratch again ... there has not (to date anyway) been any continuity in the ID&I BOS in either theatre. That unfortunately leaves me very
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#11 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,438
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I heard it from the operators even when things were going well because they were convinced that we weren't exploiting success adequately, when in fact we were doing more than they ever thought to ask and it was entirely transparent to them.
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#13 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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Quote:
![]() Got any comment to add here about your elsewhere expressed thoughts? That would be nice. Then ads are free. ![]() You could also go to this (LINK)and tack on to the end of the Thread to tell us a little about yourself and your background. |
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#14 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: D.C> Area
Posts: 17
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Kenneth,
I am logged in and filled out my profile, can you access it now? Bob |
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#15 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,097
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Quote:
__________________
Quote:
Cogitationis poenam nemo patitur |
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#16 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,450
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#17 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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Quote:
![]() However, as you may have noticed, I suggested not that you fill out your Profile but that you might visit our "Tell us about you" thread and provide a brief outline. Also and more to the point, I said that adding some of your commentary rather than posting a link to your blog would be polite. Do as you will on the background info but don't expect much chatter if you merely try to post free ads. ![]() As Ever, Kenneth
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#18 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: D.C> Area
Posts: 17
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All right, I think I filled out my info correctly, and please forgive my sarcasm; when I wrote that Kenneth crap last night I was half in the bag, celebrating the 75th anniversary of the end prohibition, so don't hold it against me.
Ken (not Kenneth), I posted some bio stuff where you requested, I think there are enough bonafides there now, no? The point I tried to make over at my site the other day was what I saw a couple of people echoing in this thread: the various info disciplines need to synchronize their activities, at least when they are operating in a theater within a joint task force. Having an information cell (which I believe is what Nato Isaf was proposing and what the article was referring to) enables the PA to be synched with operations to maximize their effects and in a timely manner, rather than being a disparate action not linked into the rest of the info fight. One other point I will make, this is more anecdotal from where I sit (especially now in five-sided happy land): Whenever people, even military types in the building, see the word PSYOP on some type of order, they freak out. If something has to get staffed with other agencies, it's even worse. PSYOP at this point has a terrible connotation, I think people would be more disposed to approving stuff that had "psychic warfare" written on it than PSYOP! I think it's a worthwhile idea at this point to scrap the term PSYOP than to rehabilitate the word. I also know that there are PSYOP guys out there that will kill to keep the term alive for some reason, too. For my part, I would rather see an EXORD that attaches a MIST to a Task Force conducting humanitarian relief somewhere sail through the system, rather than have it stuck in limbo due to the handwringing, or worse yet, watch the MIST get pulled from the task force because the word "PSYOP" was there. It happens, I kid you not. Thanks for giving me a second chance, I promise you my rehabilitation is complete, I am sober and on my 6th step, and I will remain humble throughout the rest of my tour on the council. |
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#19 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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Quote:
![]() At least I sure hope it is or I'm in truh-bulll. ![]() In any event and seriously -- welcome aboard. Read your article and agree. Good to have you and be careful on 395. Do not be careful in the building, rattle cages...
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#20 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 72
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Interesting thread. Reed, I think most of the criticisms of the article were accurate - Black PSYOP is not deceptive information, but deception of source. Military Deception is part of our toolkit, but from what I understand that's a battlefield thing (my insurgent brothers, I've heard those helicopters have been flying all night, we better keep our heads down).
I am personally a bit skeptical with the merging of IO and PSYOP, and its closer relationship with PA. But I've been biased by my instructors as SWCS. the PSYOP community, from what I've been told, rejected an offer to put IO under PSYOP, so PSYOP wound up being put under IO. I've heard rumor that this is going to change soon. We're taught that the only limit PSYOP has is our creativity, so I can sympathize when PSYOPers feel like there's so much more that can be done. |
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