Inaugural Address of President Barack Obama

[Voodoun]

Wolfsberger, sorry, your comments are simply not accurate. The Umayyads were distinctly political more than religious, which is why they were overthrown by the 'Abassids, LONG before the First Crusades. To claim that religious ferver was the driving force behind the Umayyad geopolitical expansion is to contradict everyone from Bernard Lewis to Edward Said, and to claim that Pope Urban II called a Crusade to resist the long-ended Umayyad Caliphate is to call into question the linear nature of time.

Hitler was a Christian, was the Nazi expansion a religious matter? Not by most accounts.

The point I made, and which still stands, is that violent Christian movements have faded away. Where they once dominated the course of Western conflict, they are now a tiny abberation that manifests its self VERY rarely in the actions of a few individuals, not large scale movements.

[Voodoun]

and as far as conflating ALL Christians with anything, I simply did no such thing, you added the modifier "all" on your own accord, creating a false representation of my statement, a straw man. The history of abortion clinic bombings is entirely Christian, no Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, or Scientolgists have been implicated in that sort of behavior. This is no way implies that all Christians bomb abortion clinics. Praying five times a day in the direction of Mecca is a distinctly Muslim characteristic - this in no way implies that all Muslims pray five times a day in the direction of Mecca, does it?

[jmm99]

that:

Praying five times a day in the direction of Mecca is a distinctly Muslim characteristic - this in no way implies that all Muslims pray five times a day in the direction of Mecca, does it?

But, those that don't are missing one of the five pillars of their faith - not cited for your benefit - you know this - but for others who may not.

And, agreed as a matter of baptism,

Hitler was a Christian... [in fact a Roman Catholic]..

But, how often did he confess and commune in his adult life. These are simply argumentative - and move far off topic from the President's speech. Plus, this is beginning to sound like something from a Christian-Atheist board.

[TristanAbbey]

I've so far stayed out of most of the discussions, but I was listening to a conversation between a few conservative pundits about Obama's speech, so this thread piqued my curiosity.

Arguing about one caliphate being more religious than another is pretty subjective. I agree with the earlier posters -- this separation of Church and State is a recent invention not universally accepted even today. Consider Hosni Mubarak's Egypt: a secular government, but can anyone say with a straight face that Islam doesn't play an enormous role in Egyptian society and therefore necessarily in Egyptian politics?

I would argue that the desire to pretend religion is just a personal private practice contributed -- to a large extent -- to the failure to understand what was going on in Iraq.

[Ken White]

Originally Posted by TristanAbbey

I would argue that the desire to pretend religion is just a personal private practice contributed -- to a large extent -- to the failure to understand what was going on in Iraq.

There's also the fact that a slew of 'Middle Eastern experts' in the west put a more religious slant on "what was going on in Iraq" than was actually the case. Their overstatement of the schism between Sunni and Shia was picked up by our rather ignorant news media and broadcast -- thus it almost became a self fulfilling prophecy.

All that ignored the deep grievances of a subjugated group. One that was subjugated on several grounds -- and religious sectarianism happened to be a somewhat minor contributor, particularly in relation to tribalism. Many tribes had members of both sects (and more) and those members were not penalized if the tribe was in good standing with the government of the day.

Regardless, our egos, lack of knowledge and the unwillingness of those in power to talk to anyone with significant local knowledge contributed to some really dumb mistakes.