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| Politics In the Rear National will and developments back home for the intervening nations. |
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#21 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,450
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However, I thought this anti-F-22 video was hilarious. Only a program this controversial could result in something like this: |
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#22 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 180
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The F-22 is the only aircraft we'd send into such an environment... The F-117 was old enough that it was not survivable, hence why it got shot down. The F-22 actually has a number of survivability enhancements as well. The F-22 is not a "bridge" to the F-35... the F-35 is inferior to the F-22 in many ways, especially in air-to-air and DEAD. Not as survivable against SAMs either - the F-35 needs the F-22 to be a viable platform in the face of any adversary with double digit SAMs. And yes, I know, I should follow Entropy's lead and just accept that I am not changing anyone's mind. Guess I'm just too stubborn to give up. ![]() V/R, Cliff |
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#23 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 180
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Your last bullet is makes my point for me - the F-22 is the hardware for 15-20 years out. F-35 can't get the job done, and we won't have another fighter till 2040-2050 at best - if at all. Stopping the F-22 at an unsustainable 187 ties our hands for the next 30 years. V/R, Cliff |
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#24 | ||||||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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Where's John T.? He was the guy who first brought up the F22 on this thread. ![]() In any event, Cliff, I appreciate your defense of the program but you and I are unlikely to agree. You're an airplane driver and I'm a gravel cruncher, so your opinion ought to count more... ![]() Thus I cede the ground, er, air, to you and will stick to the thread henceforth.
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#25 | |
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 3,074
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I'm well aware that the F-22 and the F-35 are not the same. But I'm also not willing to be convinced in the perfection of the F-22 based on exercise results. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare." T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War |
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#26 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Rancho La Espada, Blanchard, OK
Posts: 1,036
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I know when I'm out of my depth
![]() Been wondering though, Cliff, are you an F 22 driver perchance? Cheers JohnT |
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#27 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 180
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I agree that politics had a lot to do with the less than optimum execution of the air war in Vietnam. SAC's micro-management of the BUFF tactics definitely had a lot to do with their losses in LBII. However, I was referring to the pre-1968 bombing halt loss rates. The SA-2 and the MiG-21 combined had a huge impact on our loss rates until we developed effective SEAD aircraft and jammers, as well as tactics. We started Vietnam with poorly trained crews flying 15-20 year old tactics, with missiles that didn't work, and jets not designed for the roles they were fulfilling. Not knocking the F-4, but it was originally designed to shoot non-manuevring bombers prior to them attacking the carrier... not for OCA/DCA against fighters and SAMs... What turned it around? Training was huge... Top Gun, USAF FWS, Red Flag all had a huge impact. Improved F-4s with systems and missiles that worked a lot better made a huge difference as well. EA pods, PGMs, etc were big for the A-G folks. The new double digit SAMs and Flankers with EA are the equivalent of the SA-2 and MiG-21 of Vietnam. I don't think the F-22 is perfect... but it is the only airplane we have that will be able to go up against advanced SAMs. There's a reason why the F-15C was 104-0... and it wasn't just training. Training was definitely a huge part of it, but superior airplanes with better training are even better. It seems like all of this is going to be a moot point anyway... see here. I sincerely hope that the folks on SWJ are right about the future of war in the next 20-30 years... V/R, Cliff |
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#28 | |||||
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 180
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F-22 squadrons are actually 18 PAA right now... supposed to be 24. What folks don't realize is the additional 60 F-22s would give each squadron 24 jets... OBTW, the MC (mission capable) rate is about 68%... which is about where it should be for a new jet. There will typically be 12-14 available per squadron. Quote:
So, the SAM loss rate has to be there. The Thuds were not bought due to bad purchasing decisions... the Thud was bought to drop nukes on the Soviets... period. Unfortunately we bought aircraft only in preparation for (total) nuclear war... and trained mostly for nuclear war. Training and buying for only one type of conflict.... hmm, sound familiar? You make my point for me by illustrating how the F-4 wasn't suited to the role we had to use it for... just like the F-35 isn't suitable for air to air. Anyway, I don't think looking at the effect of a new surface to air system on air-to-air combat is comparing apples and mangoes at all. Quote:
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I appreciate everyone here at least listening to the AF guy's comments. I look forward to learning more from all of you. V/R, Cliff |
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#29 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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The announced strategy change, eliminating the myth of two war capability, will presumably be reflected in the QDR. If that reality is indeed reflected in the QDR and if what has been dribbling from most in the DoD heirarchy over the last few months is correct, the focus will be on the full spectrum of warfare and not just current fights. Thus I suggest you have been the one emphasizing training and buying for only one type of war, DoD does not appear to be doing that and no one else on this thread appears to be doing so. That 'Full Spectrum' bit means that everything from dropping nukes to getting in the mud will be required / desired. We differ on what that means apparently. You see it as focusing on only one type of war, the current flavor thus producing a shortfall in a program you support. I see it as reflecting a realistic apportionment of funds among a number of needed programs -- to include curtailing purchase of one aircraft I've strongly supported as has been stated on this board numerous times. That apportionment includes attempting to accelerate the purchase of an aircraft with less capability in some respects but which can be exported and for which agreements to buy from other nations exist thus lowering it's net cost to the US and enabling more of those aircraft to be purchased. As well as, of course, honoring those agreements, which may require added R&D or Engineering Change Proposal funding and thus impose unwanted but regrettably necessary unanticipated costs. That, as they say, is life... |
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#30 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,450
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Cliff,
I hear what you're saying, but every procurement/force structure decision carries risk, especially since we have no real idea what the future holds in terms of conflicts (and anyone who claims to know is probably pushing an agenda). Rumsfeld, for all the criticism he got for it, was essentially correct when he said you go to war with the military you have. Certainly if we could set the wayback machine and make different decisions we could have better prepared for OIF and OEF - more ground forces, better vehicles, a lot more rotary-wing, satellite bandwidth, ISR, etc. So yes, it's conceivable the F-22 decision could come back to bite us in the ass, but I think we have enough redundancy and other capabilities that the risk is not catastrophic. As one who participated in a lot of air planning, I'm confident that future leaders will be able to tailor the assets they have to the mission, even if they might not have as many assets as they'd like. Who knows, maybe Patriot will get the opportunity to shoot down an enemy aircraft for a change instead of friendly. Ok, I'm teasing, Patriot folks! Anyway, at this point, after the recent senate vote, this is all OBE. Let's all hope the F-35 delivers as now our collective tactical aircraft eggs are in that basket. The Air Force will deal with the decision and adjust accordingly. The Air Force had originally planned to put one F-22 squadron in each of its AEF's, which is partly what drove the 381 number. Now the AF has to decide if/how to integrate fewer airframes into its force structure and how it will bridge the gap between the end of F-22 production and the beginning of F-35 production. |
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#31 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
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From today's FP by David J. Rothkopf: Great powers aren't what they used to be...
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Sapere Aude Last edited by Surferbeetle; 07-22-2009 at 06:43 PM. |
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#32 | |||||
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 180
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Agreed, I was referring to recent media coverage. There have been some suggestions here that F-35 is a follow on or more advanced than the F-22 as well. Quote:
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My point is that only the low end of conflict is being funded in the current budget... the USAF in particular is eliminating about about 10% of its fighters to get more ISR assets... while not buying enough new fighters. I think we can do both. Quote:
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I think we are mostly in violent agreement, with the one exception being that I think we can afford to fund a moderate risk force at the high end of the spectrum. V/R, Cliff |
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#33 | ||||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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Hopefully, we can approach air to air combat in the post 2040 period with an aircraft not designed in the early 90s. If the response to that is it takes 15+ years to field an advanced aircraft, my reply would be that is a systemic fault that can and should be rectified and that I believe we've long recognized that but are finally doing something to correct the problem. We'll see. Quote:
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Based on visiting China, fighting Chinese and North Koreans among others plus many years of being trained and being prepared to fight the USSR and dealing with the technology of those nations, none of them ever worried me much if it were to come to a fight, land, sea or air. They still don't -- at this time and for a good many years ahead. They have, ummm -- issues...
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#34 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Rancho La Espada, Blanchard, OK
Posts: 1,036
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Ken, issues???? Now that is a new version of an intel estimate if I ever saw one!
![]() Cheers JohnT |
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#35 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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Of course, in Oklahoma, you may not be aware of the latest trends...
![]() (Actually, too lazy to spell out RAM/MQC and go into training problems. )
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#36 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,450
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Oh boy, it gets better and better. Excuse me while I get more popcorn:
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#37 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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See no sign of any change on the horizon, either...
![]() That's all political smoke and mirrors though -- there has been little to no notice of the slippage in the mainstream media because they ain't too bright and stories like that won't sell ad space or time. For once the Pendragon spokes-squirrel is correct, that article is all old news and the Cabal -- that's what they are -- of affected Senators is simply trying to get traction because while the Authorization wallahs have spoken and said no more Raptures (bad choice for a fighter name, BTW, AF...), the Appropriation wallahs have not yet done so plus the conference to reconcile both Bills still offers hope. We can persuade 'em, think they. The Fat Lady has not yet warbled. ![]() The Aviation and specialist press has been full of it for over two years. Aviation Week (I feared poor Bill Sweetman was gonna have a coronary over it...) and Flight as well as the defense pubs have all reported it. My Jane's Defence Weekly and IDR have something on it in almost every issue. So if those idiot Congroids say it was hidden and they didn't know it, they have just proven they pay no attention to reality and focus only on the pork aspects. I don't belong to the AFA and don't check Air Force very often but I'd be amazed if they had not covered the issue copiously. All that, BTW is easily Googled, I'm sure. One of the comments on your linked article has words to the effect that the F35 program is filled with graft and corruption and lies. Possibly true. As was the F-22 program, the LPD-17 and LCS programs, the EEV, the various MRAP purchases similarly filled. Yet, all those are really pretty good and not so crooked programs. For far worse, see the The A-12, the various CGN Classes of nuke propelled cruisers, the P6M, MBT-70 / M1 debacle (GM had the better tank but Chrysler was going bankrupt after all...). There are more that are even worse. Even something as simple as the M-16 / M-4 has a sordid history. ![]() This is just business as usual in our nation's capital. |
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#38 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cirenaica
Posts: 374
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DoD doesn't produce the QDR because they want to, they do it because they have to. Title 10, Section 118 of the United States Code specifies: “The Secretary of Defense shall every four years, during a year following a year evenly divisible by four, conduct a comprehensive examination (to be known as a " quadrennial defense review") of the national defense strategy, force structure, force modernization plans, infrastructure, budget plan, and other elements of the defense program and policies of the United States with a view toward determining and expressing the defense strategy of the United States and establishing a defense program for the next 20 years. Each such quadrennial defense review shall be conducted in consultation with the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.”
QDR legislation was amended by the 2003 National Defense Authorization Act, which stipulated that the due date for the report is “in the year following the year in which the review is conducted, but not later than the date on which the President submits the budget for the next fiscal year to Congress…” The QDR acts not as a substitute for the UCP, NMS, GDF, GEF, and other strategic guidance documents. It is a statutorily mandated report to Congress, and thus it is viewed in that light.
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"What is best in life?" "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
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#39 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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it's here; 10 USC §118.
It starts: Quote:
Here's Congresses big issue: Quote:
![]() The QDR sprang from the post Cold War Dividend mentality in the mind of then SecDef Les Aspin (not as bad as Louis Johnson but bad enough to make Rumsfeld look like a gentle genius) and his Bottom Up Review (BUR) looking for that peace dividend. The BUR was the first appearance of the idea that the US should be able to fight two “nearly simultaneous major theater wars,” a riff on the the two-big-war standard of the Cold War. The bottom line of the idea was to justify major defense spending and force structure cuts. The BUR was seized upon by Congress as a way to get more spending clout than they already had so the QDR was born. It is essentially a waste of money though some good comes of it. Not much, some. I'll also note that as I said before; they never funded DoD to fight two wars (the mid-Reagan years came close). It's all DC smoke and mirrors... |
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