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Forum Organization? | Main / All | Participant Communities | Conflicts | Military Functions | Small Wars COI | Members Only |
| RFIs & Members' Projects Looking for something? Float your question here, and see what the community has to say in response. |
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#1 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16
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I am currently in CGSC and a SAMS selectee. Deployment experience and now the word of academics has led me to believe the Army no longer has a viable model for wargaming for stabilization / counter-insurgent operations. The linear process is no longer feasible given the number of variables, threats, competitors, etc. (i.e. action, reaction, counteraction is a thing of the past).
I am beginning my thesis research in this area of wargaming. Specifically looking at a model that provides an idea of what questions should be looked at. Honestly, I am not convinced that wargaming is feasible given the complexity of influences along a given LOE. Thoughts and perspective would be appreciated. Cheers John |
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#2 |
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Trying to build wasta!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South Helmand Province
Posts: 1,468
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You've probably already seen his posts if you conducted any degree of forum searches, but I recommend that you might want to talk with member Nichols first and foremost.
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The Mike Sadler Project Last edited by jcustis; 01-16-2010 at 09:58 PM. |
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#3 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,306
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Quote:
Is it for purposes of training? In that case, a well designed wargame can highlight operational complexities, and identify the sorts of questions, issues, and challenges that COIN and stability operations present. (On the other hand, if it implies to much clarity about this, I think it sends all the wrong signals.) Is it for the purpose of operations planning? Here I'm much more dubious, although one can imagine wargame designs that help to identify possible responses by insurgents and others.
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They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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#4 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
Posts: 3,647
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Quote:
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Killing bad folks = gets points. Killing civilians = loosing points. Irregular warfare generally requires greater discrimination in order to support the Policy = do not kill civilians. Actually there are at least two PC based simulations that already account for this, - and do it pretty well.
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"I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!" ![]() - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya. - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya. Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition |
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#5 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
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John,
Sounds like an interesting project, but perhaps being too long in the tooth I remain a skeptic of any attempt to seriously replicate a stability operation. However, I still think a game could be useful in introducing multiple variables that a commander/leader will have to consider ranging from security to economic development to developing peace arrangements between different warring factions. Ideally any game developed would allow the integration of key players from the interagency, NGOs, PVOs, multi-national partners; and portray a complicated/complex environment such as Bosnia, Somalia, etc. At the same time following Wilf's focus at the tactical level, we should be able to scale it down to the tactical level by focusing on particular military missions such a security operations, providing humanitarian assistance, etc. I don't think the tactical piece of the game is that hard. We actually played games like this during the 90's focused on Peace Operations that are a form of Stability Operation, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. I agree with Wilf that war isn't more complicated now than it was in WWI or during the Vietnam conflict, but simply that the environmental variables have changed. We're not worried so much about conducting operations that may cross the red line anymore resulting in superpowers slinging nukes at one another. Now we're more concerned about misstepping, thus allowing or causing pockets of instability to expand and destabilize entire regions. This is a strategic level consideration that will define your limitations at the tactical level. For the gamers at the tactical level you're given a mission, your limitations, an environment, and then you play the game and see what ideas it generates. |
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#6 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 167
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First things first, go find Dr James Sterrett on the sims team down in the basement of the L&C bldg, and have a long conversation with him. He's the wargaming guru down there, and has a great wealth of experience that can (at least) help point you toward some great resources. While you're there, ask him what the difference is between a "game" and a "sim" and see how long it takes him to ask "did Brant put you up to this?"
Second, and more to you direct area of interest - you need to ask what the point of the wargame is within the context you're observing. Part of what comes out of the MDMP wargame is the identification of key decision points, and the CCIRs that drive those DPs. Regardless of "linear" or not, that output is still relevant, significant, and useful. MDMP wargaming for COIN is still branches, sequels, and FRAGOs, just much more divergent than before, and may require more nebulous descriptors than we've had in the past - especially at higher echelons where you increase the involvement of participants not under military control (DoS, USAID, etc). You're branches and sequels are no longer "what if they attack the flank" but now "what if they start bombing day-care centers". However, let me also say that you can NOT throw out the 'conventional' type of MCMP wargaming any more than you can throw out the 'conventional' maneuver plan or 'conventional' combat doctrine of the US military. No other gov't agency in the US 'owns' warfare the way DoD does. Lots of people have a stake in COIN/nation-building, like DoS, DoJ, USDA, CIA, USAID, etc. Only one owns conventional warfighting, and if we don't do it, there's no backup plan.
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Brant, Game Commando, BayonetGames ![]() Military news and views at GrogNews “their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of ‘rights’… and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure.” Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers 1959 Play more wargames! |
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#7 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 724
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Quote:
Simulations and models are pretty powerful tools as long as we keep in mind that they are simplifying and incomplete representations of reality (perhaps comparable to Bertrand Russell's table). SWC threads How to Win and Mathematics of War have some interesting points on the why's and how's of simulations. These post's (here and here) on concepts examined by others have sparked some thoughts. I enjoy making simple models in excel (on occasion I also use mathcad & mathematica but it's rare) for engineering work and financial modeling. I enjoyed using the commercial simulations offered to us in mba school, and sometimes work with HEC-RAS while dabbling with HEC-HMS, Arcview and AutoCAD Civil 3D. This is a thesis that I am exploring here at SWC. (Since that post I am presently defining War as being composed of various TTP, or warfare types, i.e. Conventional warfare, COIN warfare, etc. and have not changed my views that the nature of war is constant throughout these TTP). The Jan/Feb 2010 edition of the Atlantic discusses military simulations in the article SimCity Baghdad by Brian Mockenhaupt. Quote:
Last edited by Surferbeetle; 01-18-2010 at 03:32 PM. |
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#8 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wherever you go, there you are...
Posts: 46
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These might be of interest:
UrbanSim Deep Green I have been thinking about doing something very similar to the UrbanSim concept, but as a commercial product, and reflecting my own particular view of network defeat. With regard to the Deep Green concept, anyone interested in it might also be interested in the subject of genetic algorithms (also, see the Robby the Robot examples on the net, such as this one. Read about GAs recently in Complexity: A Guided Tour).
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There are three kinds of people in this world: Those who can count, and those who can't. |
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#9 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,306
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Quote:
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They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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#10 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wherever you go, there you are...
Posts: 46
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Quote:
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There are three kinds of people in this world: Those who can count, and those who can't. |
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#11 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16
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All -
Thank you for the comments thus far. I am looking at the tactical level wargame, not unlike the MDMP that we currently use. My questioning is not based on a "game" or "sim", but the thought process required to understand competitors, tribes, etc. Further, I am not convinced, based on personal experience, that one can completely understand every effect on the battlefield. Nor am I attempting to develop a product to predict the future. However, I do propose that TTPs, good practices, in conjunction with current business models can provide an estimate of actions, reactions and counteractions. I envision input from HTTs, PRTs, and others that provide insight and perspective to a unit's battlespace. I understand John Nagle's comments that humans are involved and we cannot completely predict their actions. I concur, but submit we can do a better job of understanding trends, causes, and effects. Regards John |
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#12 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Estonia
Posts: 2,771
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Quote:
Just my blind 2 cents, but a simulator or game cannot replicate the thought process of life on the ground. Only experience will provide the upper hand and even that's not a guarantee I'm willing to bet on. You're on the right track in my opinion - There are many other players out there that we tend to ignore when it comes to fully understanding the playing field. I learned more from a bunch of mixed up expats in the bush than any other pre-deployment training program. Regards, Stan
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There are very few problems, which cannot be solved by the suitable application of High Explosives
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#13 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,306
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Quote:
Key, I think, is encouraging people to think about what questions they need to ask, what kind of dynamics they need to be alert for, and what kind of operational/economic/political/normative trade-offs they are likely to face. Finally, we need to prewarn people in a sophisticated way about "worst practices"--that is, situations where well-intentioned actors make mistakes due to organizational pathologies, cultural baggage, inappropriate or unresponsive SOPs, etc. I've often found that my own students end up repeating many of the mistakes they've already read about--which provides a valuable opportunity to discuss how and why they did so.
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They mostly come at night. Mostly.
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#14 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 208
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Quote:
First, you can't expect the same level of fidelity you learn to strive for when planning a river crossing on the north German plains - you won't come away with "TF 1-23 LD 210330 at PP 1 & 2" or "Activate Branch Plan B if 3rd TA retains 75% of combat power". Second, it is much easier to talk yourself into things when wargaming counterinsurgency or nation-building, either out of ignorance or wishful thinking - or most likely both. "Yeah, if we kill or capture Mullah Omar the local elders will agree to promote recruitment for the ANSF" may sound reasonable, but it reflects an inappropriately linear faith in cause-and-effect that just doesn't hold when dealing with human hearts in a hideously complex operating environment. You can't really wargame operations because in this environment they are spread out over months, not days, and because they are subject to incredible ethical, social, political, economic, and, yes, military stresses. They can also be radically affected by things that would normally be insignificant in a conventional setting: the death of a particular individual, the crash of a helicopter, an enterprising reporter, a phone call from a politician (or his brother-in-law), a case of collateral damage or fratricide. You can and should wargame concepts of operations. Say you want to stop infiltration over the international border. You can wargame the concept fairly easily, along with the bad guys' likely reaction, possible counter-reactions, counter-counter-reactions, etc. You won't come away with details that will help in the day-to-day grind, but you can emerge with the following: A rough idea of the problems that will crop up A vague notion of the resources required for various levels of success A primitive understanding of the political, social, and economic influences at work A draft list of possible indicators and barely adequate measures of effectiveness/progress A lot of blank spaces in your understanding and situational awareness that various staff weenies can go away to try to fill in In other words, it is a brainstorming session with a modicum of discipline applied through adherence to normal wargaming procedures. Helpful, but not a silver bullet. It is really easy to allow it to focus directly on staff processes; try to avoid that as it will give the illusion of solutions without preparing you to face the messy realities on the ground. One last word - get some real experts to role play during the wargame. Best solution would be to get guys currently on the ground, but that won't happen. Indigenous personnel, guys with past experience, academics, State guys, NGO reps, smart-ass captains who think they are smarter than every field-grade they ever met - these are the guys you want in the room, particularly on the 'red' team. |
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#15 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,696
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All really excellent points, Eden. I'd like to elaborate on your last one:
Quote:
Second point, in addition to the types of people Eden suggested, get some precocious 12 year olds (a younger, more smart ass version of the CPTs Eden suggested), plus some old style, RPG gamers (preferably old DMs of the frakin' sneaky variety) who know a bit about current operations. One final point, make sure that you have an umpire / ref who is not military. This is, actually, crucial - you want someone who can think totally outside of the doctrinal box. Personally, I'd suggest Rex !
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Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat... Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D. Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies, Senior Research Fellow, The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA Carleton University http://marctyrrell.com/ |
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#16 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,342
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Also add a couple of sharp SFC/MSG types to your Red Team -- go for SFCs at a minimum because most have no problem speaking truth to power. Stop at MSG because they have not yet learned to make all their answers politically palatable. The NCOs will play dirty, even most CPTs will not.
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#17 |
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 2,730
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And be sure to get outsiders to play press and local interest groups. They're going to give you the most innovative and/or irritating performances, which is just what you need in that role. They'll be best able to shake up your regular participants and give them situations that won't be "in the book." Marc's comments are especially valid here.
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"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare." T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War |
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#18 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lansing, KS
Posts: 339
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Thanks for writing what I was supposing I was going to have to (until of course I read your post)...
Rule one of MDMP: Understand the problem, if you don't, don't worry you will continue to return to Mission Analysis until you do... Rule two of MDMP: If you come away with a shared understanding of the problem, the process largely served its purpose... because you can then develop... (head node to Eden) A rough idea of the problems that will crop up A vague notion of the resources required for various levels of success A primitive understanding of the political, social, and economic influences at work A draft list of possible indicators and barely adequate measures of effectiveness/progress A lot of blank spaces in your understanding and situational awareness that various staff weenies can go away to try to fill in I think the intellectual discord John senses is that we have plenty of senior officers who just want a series of decision points and 3 x 5 cards handed to them at the end of the process as opposed to being an active participant at specific points in the process... Live well and row
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Hacksaw Say hello to my 2 x 4 |
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#19 | ||||
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 1
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Quote:
I admit that I am new to this blog; however, I would like to respectfully disagree with Mr. Owen. I will start by saying that I am a current Army field-grade officer and CGSC student. Also, I have read many posts by Mr. Owen, and I find his comments to be largely lucid, intelligent, and well-said. Nonetheless, I feel obligated to disagree on many points in his post. At first glance, there is nothing shocking (or shockingly wrong) with Mr. Owen's comments. However, as I read them more deeply, I think those comments are made without an appreciation for the complexity of a counter-insurgency. First of all, he contends that Quote:
When Mr. Owen states that Quote:
Finally, I take issue with the claim that Quote:
I apologize for rambling. Again, I respect 99% of what Mr. Owen says. However, I did feel the need to voice a different opinion on this one post. Thank you for listening. Last edited by davidbfpo; 01-20-2010 at 09:43 PM. Reason: Add quote marks and PM to author |
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#20 | |||||||||
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
Posts: 3,647
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There never was anything called "Blitzkrieg". It's baby talk, and the Germans never used the word. German operations in 1939 were based on tactical doctrine written in 1922/3 and that in turn developed from the Artillery Tactics of WW1 - often wrongly coined "Stormtrooper." Quote:
Warfare requires killing. Killing is instrumental, so must be applied against the right people for the right reasons. Who you need to kill is why you have intelligence. FIND, FIX, STRIKE, and EXPLOIT works in all warfare, regardless of the enemy or the policy - and even Galula could not avoid that fact - he just couldn't admit it! Quote:
a.) There is not an "operational level of war." There is tactics and strategy. b.) Operations are those things an army does to ensure tactical action occurs in the time and place best suited to the political aims required. Quote:
300 Spartans did the same (in myth anyway). 5-10 Bombs dropped by 5-10 men, won the Battle of Midway. One U-boat captain sinking the Lusitania provided the US with a pretext for War. Quote:
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-Point is, you seem to have brought into all the comforting myths of modern warfare that forgives folks not studying military history both in breadth and in depth. It is incredibly arrogant of the modern generation to assume they have it tougher or more complex. It is simply without evidence. Confusion born of ignorance (no offence intended) does not mean "complex." Warfare has always been about the most complex human affair on the planet. Loosing on Iwo Jima or Okinawa would almost certainly have had far greater strategic consequences than defeat/withdrawal in both Iraq or Afghanistan. Washington loosing his entire Army in one administrative river crossing at Trenton would have had similar effect.
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"I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!" ![]() - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya. - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya. Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition |
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