Human Terrain & Anthropology (merged thread)

[Rex Brynen]

The facts are that our kids are more interested in watching these types of movies than learning about the real world. I am probably taking this too seriously, though! As my own kids tell me, I am just a "big ol' fuddie-duddie"!

For what its worth, I've taught an awful lot of university students (well over ten thousand by my reckoning), and I usually find them a pretty impressive bunch--engaged, interested, active.

Just to provide an example: a couple of years back, a UNDP colleague in Africa needed an intern for 3-4 months to work on a host of urgent issues (AIDS, food security). There was free accommodation, but no pay, and the student would have to finance their own travel.

I mentioned it to my senior class of 105 students. By the end of the week I had 23 volunteers. The one that we ultimately selected had a straight-A record and was joint honours in development studies and microbiology. By all accounts, she did a superb job.

I can't go anywhere these days without running into ex-students in the field--with the UN, NGOs, as FSOs or with aid agencies or as soldiers, as translators or analysts, or teachers and researchers. They are at least as committed as "my" generation, and have a range of networking and IT skills (on top of everything) that didn't exist a couple of decades ago.

(I don't agree as to the quality of contemporary popular culture either, I'll leave that one aside for now!)

[selil]

Rex I agree with you, my students are motivated, smart, giving, and they volunteer like crazy to help each other and people they've never met.

[Sargent]

Rigorous critique is fine. "It doesn't have enough citations" does not constitute a rigorous critique. Ideological potshots at American involvement in Iraq do not constitute rigorous critique.

That the work doesn't have adequate citations is as good a place as any to start a rigorous critique of the process and the form of the work. The only answers given to this are first, that this is how it's done, and second, the document is signed by two flag officers, and only their wisdom matters. Both of these answers have been given as a means to end any discussion regarding the form of the manual, or the process by which it was put together. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that these justifications are weak.

Whatever his intentions or motivations, Price has pointed to a flaw in the manual. I don't much care about the messenger, but I do think the message bears consideration beyond that which it has received here. I have no ideological axe to grind, but as an historian, I think these things are important.

Again I will say, if the content of the doctrine was worthy of reconsideration, then it's not too far-fetched to suggest that other aspects of the doctrine might not suffer from fresh round of thought.

Pretend that somebody you respected identified the problem.

Regards,
Jill

[SteveMetz]

That the work doesn't have adequate citations is as good a place as any to start a rigorous critique of the process and the form of the work. The only answers given to this are first, that this is how it's done, and second, the document is signed by two flag officers, and only their wisdom matters. Both of these answers have been given as a means to end any discussion regarding the form of the manual, or the process by which it was put together. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that these justifications are weak.

Whatever his intentions or motivations, Price has pointed to a flaw in the manual. I don't much care about the messenger, but I do think the message bears consideration beyond that which it has received here. I have no ideological axe to grind, but as an historian, I think these things are important.

Again I will say, if the content of the doctrine was worthy of reconsideration, then it's not too far-fetched to suggest that other aspects of the doctrine might not suffer from fresh round of thought.

Pretend that somebody you respected identified the problem.

Regards,
Jill

We'll agree to disagree. I think the only "flaw" Price has pointed out is that the manual isn't an academic document. I think that's about as valid as me critiquing one of Price's articles because it doesn't have a mission statement and alternative courses of action. In fact, I think it's amazing hubris on his part to assume that all the rest of the world should conform to the standards of his profession.

I would respectfully submit that if someone wants to critique how doctrine is developed, it's incumbent on them to actually find out how doctrine is developed rather than just assuming that the process is one they're familiar with. So what I think of Price isn't my point; I don't think he has, in fact, identified a "problem." He simply claims to as a wedge to expound his personal ideology.

[Watcher In The Middle]

Originally posted by Steve Metz:
As long as my dander is up and I'm in mid-rant, let me throw out another point. While some trained anthropologist who consult with the government undoubtedly do so because they believe in the cause, I suspect there are other who do it just because it's a job. So the profession generates more anthropologists than the academic market can absorb, and then carps when they seek other ways to make a living.

A much under appreciated point. Facts are, the Anthropology market isn't exactly a white hot job market, but there is and has been (and will be) a market for consultant/contract type work for anthropologists who have field experience in what would qualify as "developing nations" - from multi national corporations.

But the point is, these places are all about money (big, multi year development contracts), and as a result, they need to put people on the ground with field experience who can perform "out of the box", if you will. Straight academic types are of very little use to these folks - they bring little to the table that is of value. Well, if a HTT vet is a candidate for one of these types of job vrs. a bunch of academic types with limited developing nation field experience, that HTT vet is going to have a better chance of getting through the door and ending up on the short list.

This whole deal seems to an outsider to be an elitist attempt by the Anthropology "Haves" to stop the rest of the Anthropolgy marketplace from being polluted by issues like "Making a living", or getting a chance at credible developing nation field expertise.

From a purely economic basis, this stance by the AAA seems to be completely illogical - you want to try and grow your marketplace for your graduating students, not wall it off and limit it's growth.

One last point to consider - just as everybody notes how the military adopts processes and technology from the marketplace, don't forget that the reverse is also true. The marketplace also looks at how the military innovates, and both learns and adopts. The AAA might want to take that into consideration if they want to expand opportunities for their membership.

[invictus0972]

Rex I agree with you, my students are motivated, smart, giving, and they volunteer like crazy to help each other and people they've never met.

Hi Rex and Selil!

In my haughty mood, I may have been too hard on the education system in my posts. I am glad to hear that there are so many motivated students. However, I would like to clarify that I was referring to the common education kids receive in the public school system (K-12). I would expect the students at the university level to be more motivated, but they are not the pool from which the Army is drawing recruits. In COIN, the things that occur at the street level between a private and the citizens of a village may have more important strategic consequences than the decisions of a general in his headquarters. The reality of this situation has triggered some debate in the military about how we develop the "strategic private". In other words, how do we take an 18-24 year old kid who has been consumed with nothing but pop culture his whole life, I work with these kids every day, and turn him in to a strategic thinker who considers the role of history, religion, culture, and geopolitics in his decision making process, while at the same time maintaining the necessary situational awareness required to stay alive in a combat zone? This is a tough nut to crack! It may be impossible! I just think a step in the right direction would be to change the anti[intellectual sentiment in America. Of course that requires changing a culture, and we all know how hard that can be.

DISCLAIMER: I don't mean to come off as being intellectually arrogant. On the contrary, I have the most to learn and should be farther along than I am, and there are PLENTY who are brighter than me.

[Schmedlap]

Let me clarify by saying that I have no doubt whatsoever that there is an anti-military bias within anthropology and many other social sciences. To be utterly fair, though, there is also an anti-academia bias within the military. If you doubt this, look at all the name calling on this site.
I don't think this is anti-academia bias. It is a disdain for a niche within academia that has an irrational dislike, borne primarily of ignorance, towards the military. I don't think that any significant portion of the military has a bias against the majority of normal professors who, while they may be leftists, do not have an irrational dislike for the military.

Speaking for myself, I was commissioned through a 2-year military program and then finished my degree at a 4-year university in a far-left city. I actually kept my military affiliation a secret for my junior year for fear of being treated unfairly by my professors, but I soon learned that this was nothing to worry about. I have a high regard for many of those professors - even though several were socialists. On the other hand, I encountered a community college professor in my hometown who was energetically opposing a JROTC program in a local high school. He claimed that this was "an attempt to instill the military mindset into unsuspecting children and turn them into cold blooded killers." When I explained to him his fundamental misunderstanding of JROTC and the limited utility of drill & ceremonies to modern warfare, he declared that I am a brain-washed murderer with the blood of innocent people on my hands (and this was BEFORE 9/11). I confess to having an extreme bias towards that individual and those like him him who have dedicated themselves to ignorance and hate.

[Schmedlap]

I would like to clarify that I was referring to the common education kids receive in the public school system (K-12). I would expect the students at the university level to be more motivated, but they are not the pool from which the Army is drawing recruits. In COIN, the things that occur at the street level between a private and the citizens of a village may have more important strategic consequences than the decisions of a general in his headquarters. The reality of this situation has triggered some debate in the military about how we develop the "strategic private". In other words, how do we take an 18-24 year old kid who has been consumed with nothing but pop culture his whole life, I work with these kids every day, and turn him in to a strategic thinker who considers the role of history, religion, culture, and geopolitics in his decision making process, while at the same time maintaining the necessary situational awareness required to stay alive in a combat zone? This is a tough nut to crack! It may be impossible!
My impression was that most of my Soldiers "got it". Although they were quick to put up their impression of what a tough guy is and says, always being quick to make a dumb statement like "kill em all and let God sort em out", this was just an expression of frustration. They understood that this is just a dumb phrase and not the way to go about our jobs. So long as their squad and team leaders set the example and did the right thing, the Soldiers were happy to emulate that good example. Fortunately, once a Soldier was faced with the responsibility of being a team leader or squad leader, he quickly began to understand why getting to know the people in a neighborhood is more important than killing them. I doubt that many would be considered strategic thinkers - nor would I consider myself or other leaders in the company to have been so - but they were smart guys who could quickly learn and apply the lessons from people who are strategic thinkers.

[marct]

I'd have to agree with Rex and Selil - most of my students are quite interested in learning and, in many cases, quite mad that they were not challenged in High School.

Originally posted by Steve Metz:

As long as my dander is up and I'm in mid-rant, let me throw out another point. While some trained anthropologist who consult with the government undoubtedly do so because they believe in the cause, I suspect there are other who do it just because it's a job. So the profession generates more anthropologists than the academic market can absorb, and then carps when they seek other ways to make a living.

A much under appreciated point. Facts are, the Anthropology market isn't exactly a white hot job market, but there is and has been (and will be) a market for consultant/contract type work for anthropologists who have field experience in what would qualify as "developing nations" - from multi national corporations.

And other areas as well :D. This situation, too many PhD's for the academy, has existed since the late 1970's, and the AAA has had the problem of a polarized membership for at least that long. Organizationally, I'm not surprised to see this - it is an inevitable consequence of the way the discipline has developed. In some ways, it mirrors the split in Mathematics (Theoretical vs. Applied).

[marct]

Hi Steve,

We'll agree to disagree. I think the only "flaw" Price has pointed out is that the manual isn't an academic document. I think that's about as valid as me critiquing one of Price's articles because it doesn't have a mission statement and alternative courses of action. In fact, I think it's amazing hubris on his part to assume that all the rest of the world should conform to the standards of his profession.

One might almost consider accusing him of politically correct cultural relativism :rolleyes:.

I would respectfully submit that if someone wants to critique how doctrine is developed, it's incumbent on them to actually find out how doctrine is developed rather than just assuming that the process is one they're familiar with. So what I think of Price isn't my point; I don't think he has, in fact, identified a "problem." He simply claims to as a wedge to expound his personal ideology.

That the work doesn't have adequate citations is as good a place as any to start a rigorous critique of the process and the form of the work.

Steve, I think Jill has an excellent point and that the two of you are,in effect, arguing apples and oranges. I think that it is important to distinguish between a critique of the process of doctrine writing and a critique of the doctrine itself. I certainly ave no difficulty with your comments on Price's critique of the process, he doesn't seem to know what he is talking about there, but I think that Jill is right about the citations being a good place to start for a critique in the area of content. If nothing else, the definitions used contain assumptions of reality that may, or may not, be the best available (I know they aren't for the definition of ritual).

So, where to start on the critique of the doctrine itself? While I'll admit that doctrine is about satisficing behaviour (i.e. good enough to work, not necessarily the "best"), I think it is also important that it be extensible in a theoretically coherent manner. For example, the definition of ritual is highly limited and extensible only to observable behaviour - not a position that Turner held in his later work and inherently problematic if we wanted to extend the work to include IO and PSYOPS.

Marc

[Steve Blair]

I'd have to agree with Rex and Selil - most of my students are quite interested in learning and, in many cases, quite mad that they were not challenged in High School.

I'll have to join the chorus here. Many (but not all) of the students I come into contact with (either as an instructor or informal adviser) are looking for some sort of intellectual challenge. Some of them get quite frustrated when they start finding "more of the same" in college.

[Penta]

I'll have to join the chorus here. Many (but not all) of the students I come into contact with (either as an instructor or informal adviser) are looking for some sort of intellectual challenge. Some of them get quite frustrated when they start finding "more of the same" in college.

(I apologize in advance if this sounds like a rant.)
As one of those recent students....Yes, yes, yes.

For me, the only reason I suffered through high school (where I was bored and depressed) was to get to college. I had mental health issues at the time, too, so I was desperate to get away (even from the alt school I was placed in in 11th grade).

I get to college, figuring "I have just 4 years left"...And find out there that, for a political science major (and most liberal arts majors, really), to really have a chance to get a job where you might do relevant things with your education, you need...a grad degree. (ROTC is another route, yes; but given my disabilities, not an option for me.)

I was, still am to an extent, pissed at that. I was lucky - the school I picked (University of Scranton, for those who care) was a decent school, if a horrible choice for someone like me who was stuck on campus and not a social butterfly. I had a few profs (my advisor especially) who wouldn't let me fail out (as I pondered on many an occasion) and could occasionally throw me things to chew on.

But overall, college was a fair number of required courses I could have done without (Political philosophy, I'm looking at you...Dept required course that gave me fits...), with only some that were unexpectedly useful (The required theology sequence (UofS being a Jesuit school)), the rest being obvious requirements or whatever.

Issues I see in education?

1) College costs a lot of money. As I have friends and family at college age, or their last years of HS, I'm seeing this in a way I admit I didn't when it was my turn. I'd be surprised if I saw a four-year school with tuition UNDER 22k per year - before adding on room, board, books, fees, etc, etc. I don't know anybody going through college, or about to go through college, who does not work or is not planning to work just to make the money work. Only reason I didn't is because parents had the ability to cover me (I'm the youngest of two; the equation is different if you're, say, the eldest of three or something), helpful given that it was hard enough to pull off 15 credits (18 being a "normal" courseload at my school) without working. Scholarships and (non-loan) aid are not available for a lot of them (too poor to pay out of pocket, too rich to qualify for need-based aid); If they're spending the time they aren't in class, sleeping, or trying to study for classes that seem to see monster papers as somehow indicating rigor (Uh, no. Minimum 10 pages does not equal rigor, not if I'm a good enough writer to say what I have to say in 6!), to enable college to BE a time of intellectual exploration. It's basically a lot like HS in terms of being "on the hamster wheel"; difference is, you're away from home, and you pay for the privilege of being a hamster.

2) There's a glut of people with undergrad degrees vs jobs that will take only undergrad degrees. Maybe it's a cyclical thing, but right now, it's hard to actually get a job within a few months of leaving school. (Hence why many of the people I graduated HS with are in law school or grad school if they can pull it off) And forget a job that actually uses the degree you put six figures towards getting.

2A) College has a problem. Undergrad programs, funding, etc. are designed for 4 years. Personally, while I admit to making mistakes aplenty (in some ways, I wonder if I was ready for college, with my disabilities, when I started; I hate to admit that, but it comes to mind), it took me 5 and a half years, including a semester break for a vocational rehab program. 5-6 years seems to be becoming more common - yet there's still a black mark, it feels like, if you don't get that degree in 4 years. Is it just where I live (The Shore area of NJ; Monmouth-Ocean Counties to be more precise), or have others felt that? (Folks who hire people? Any view from that end?)

In short: Everybody says college is supposed to prepare you for a career. Or at least, that's what's pitched to students (current and prospective).

Meanwhile, I'm left with the feeling that, no, it's really just meant to weed people out of going to grad school, where one is really prepared for a career...And if you don't make the jump to grad school, you just wasted time and money, and in many cases are left with crushing debtloads.

...Yes, this did turn into a rant.:( Not what I intended. Hopefully, though, amid my rantings, some can see something of use.

[Ken White]

My daughter would totally agree, particularly with the emphasis on an advance degree and taking more than four years to complete. We have really skewed the system a bit too much...

[Penta]

A bit? A bit?

*falls off chair with laughter*

Let me show my hand: I screwed up a few semesters, came out of college with a 2.3 GPA. Not because I was lazy, but because I...Well, I gave up. I began wondering where the hell the payoff would be, all the doors that were supposed to open for me once I'd gotten to college.

I wonder whether to laugh bitterly or just cry when friends from my younger days say that "last I knew, you actually were the smartest one around", and mean it. (I'm the classic "bright kid who burned out in college", I suppose.) Because I don't see the evidence. So, yeah, I saw someone bring up the issue of education, and I pounced. Because I suppose I feel a little screwed.

Is grad school in my future? I hope so, but I'm not optimistic (unless someone here has an in with an MA program in security studies/int'l relations or similar). Painful to realize, especially when, on an intellectual level, I'd begun "priming myself" for (I hoped) a career in government (hey, I'm disabled - job security is important, and the intel community ain't gonna be outsourced to China or India!) when I was in my early teens and had given up the idea of doing anything that required eyesight, the ability to drive, or much in the way of physical ability.

So, unless and until I get a grad degree, I could have my major in something completely random, and it'd be the same thing.

I doubt, I really doubt, that I'm the only one who can say that among my peers - there are opportunities, yes. But we were promised that once we got into college, we were at least going to have a vaguely decent job.

That promise...Ain't happened. I'm happy to have the job I have, but I imagined that by this point I'd be starting my career, not just in a job I took because my career seems to be slammed shut to me. And I don't have student loans or the like to worry about. I have no credit history, but no debt, either.

I'm going to sound bitter here, but...I don't care about your political views. Every side of the spectrum is at fault.

Those 30 and older made a lot of promises to my generation, able-bodied or not, many to keep us from giving up totally over the years.

Promises come due, and imagine the surprise when we come to find that the ladder's been yanked up, the door shut, and the sound we just heard was the lock clanking closed. (When the average tab for college is $20k+ per year for tuition alone, increasing at twice the rate of inflation, with textbook prices (to name a small part) going up by three-digit percentages over the past ten years, I fear to think what the situation is for those, say, 5-8 years younger than me.)

Either doors open soon on a large scale, or the verdict is going to be that we all got screwed, and have no realistic chance of actually having a decent life.

[selil]

This video talks about some of the problems with the education system (CLICK HERE) (http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/66). Take the time about fifteen minutes to watch it and it might change your mind about education.

[Schmedlap]

I have to agree with all of the points made about college. A few more gripes, just because...

I'm enrolled in an MBA program. I took one semester of courses prior to my latest deployment to Iraq. To be blunt, it was an obscene waste of my time and money and my grades reflect not what knowledge I obtained, but rather the quality of homework that I turned in.

Although I was in school, I still remembered that I was a military professional FIRST and a college student SECOND. When I am given a homework assignment that has 20 problems that take about 30 minutes each to complete, that all utilize the same concept, applied over and over, and I am in a time crunch where work competes with school, then work is going to win and I am going to blow off doing the next 15 repetitive problems to a high standard. This is not a complaint about getting a B instead of an A, but just an observation that, to me, shows that something is wrong. In this particular course, I aced each of the 3 tests. I mean that I literally attained a score of 100 on each test, to include the final exam (it was a statistics course and I'm an analytical guy). However, due to my aforementioned decision to focus on work when the homework proved mindlessly repetitive and a detriment to my professional duties, my homework grade dragged down my overall grade to the point that while I was the only person to even get a 90 or higher on each test, let alone 100, I got a solid B. What does that grade reflect? I say it reflects my priorities. If I were applying to a PhD program or something else that cares about grades - which thankfully I am not - then I suspect that the grade would be interpreted as an inadequate mastery of the material or a deficient intellect.

Another course - the title escapes me now - was basically a course in "dealing with people 101". It was such a simple, basic, dumbed-down, intellectually insulting waste of my time that I considered dropping out of the program altogether. I requested that I get credit for it based on "life experience" but commanding an infantry company in urban combat did not pass the muster. The professor did nothing but preach to us for 2 hours a week, not only failing to encourage questions, but actively repelling them and discouraging any discussion whatsoever. Basically, we took notes on material that we were never tested on, wrote a research paper on a narrow human resources topic, and then got a grade that seemed to be randomly generated (I got an A, though I am not sure why).

The most maddening experience was a case study that we did in groups that reminded me of the MDMP drills that we do in IOBC and ICCC. Just a finger-drilled procedure that we will never use again, that does little to generate or justify a decision, and is basically just a briefing format that is contrived to fit the course of action that is determined ahead of time.

I have actually been considering a transition to an anthropology and/or international affairs program. My only reservation is that I suspect that I will lack the patience to write research papers on simplistic topics with set page restrictions (I took one course in which the maximum was 10 pages - my draft was easily over 50) that are skimmed over by a disinterested graduate assistant who sharpshoots my citations and ignores the content.

The most disappointing aspect of my cynical view of graduate school in general, and business school in particular, thus far, is that I now have enough money to easily go to school without working and still maintain my standard of living, but it seems less interesting. I worked through undergraduate school, lived on ramen noodles, had no social life, and graduated flat broke. I always thought about how nice it would be to go to school simply for the intellectual pleasure or to learn something useful, rather than to just get a degree. Now I've reached the point where I can do just that, but I have also reached the conclusion that I was aspiring for an experience that business school does not offer. Everybody here seems to be focused on getting a degree and not at all interested in learning anything. Almost every question that is asked begins with "if this were asked on the test..." or "will this be on the test?" or "how would you ask this on a test?" It is disappointing.

I would love to find an intellectually stimulating program where I learn something interesting and useful - regardless of obtaining a degree - but it seems like schools have fashioned themselves into factories that churn out degree holders.

[Norfolk]

I can't remember now who wrote it, or on which thread they posted it, but someone here at SWC a few weeks ago said that the best way to learn was to get a bunch of good books and just read them yourself. While there are some real limitations to that way of learning, it is still one of the best, and one of the few that anyone can do on their own initiative and without having to attend classes of some sort or formal schooling and the like.

Without adding the experiences of my own academic career to the Parade of Higher Education Horrors already recounted, I simply have to say that I largely concurr. The gross over-expansion of Higher Education over the last generation or so in response to the "demand" for degrees in order to pursue careers has led to institutionalized mediocrity throughout much of that system. The pressure to recruit, "educate", and accredit more students, create new programs/departments/faculties, etc., and to increase the prestige and "reputation" (amongst other things) of colleges, universities, faculties, and individual faculty members, has resulted in a general lowering of academic standards and integrity throughout. Much of the function of colleges and univerisities has been reduced to that of degree mills, instead of as places of learning. There is a disturbing consistency to such observations across North American institutions of higher learning such that it forms a discernable pattern; it is long past being just a trend.

When Higher Education is turning out far more people with degrees than can ever hope to gain employment "commensurate" with the "educations" that they have supposedly received, a growing loss of confidence in the worth of higher education is a long-term consequence. When people think of (as they have been raised to believe - and as employers demand) a university education as a path to a career, then when the "supply" of such "educated" carreer-aspirants far exceeds what the workforce seeks, people feel cheated - and all the more so when they have played by the rules that were laid out for them with the "promise" of a career at the end. This is potentially lethal consequence Number 1.

Now, when the "education" that many of these people receive is in many cases little more than a contrivance in order to create more programs for more degrees for more "careers", never mind those that are simply ideological tripe passing for learning, those students who really are looking for an intellectual challenge are quite likely to feel disappointed - or worse. Even more so than the "career-aspirants", these people who have a genuine love of learning may find themselves either stulted or simply turned-off by the often rote, unimaginative, and just plain lame curriculae they may find themselves presented with. Few things turn-off bright and keen students than a professor or curriculum that is just going through the motions. When such sharp, eager young minds encounter this - and remember, they are often still quite idealistic at this stage - , it is all too easy for them to conclude that Higher Education has been dumbed-down. The result is frequently that they settle for doing just the minimum to get decent marks, their degree, and then get out and never look back, except for having a poor opinion of Higher Education. Potentially lethal consequence No. 2.

Take these 2 Potentially Lethal Consequences, and you have a simple, and increasingly widespread lack of confidence in Higher Education. When the same people are faced with making great financial sacrifices in order to send their own children to college or university, and when considering that they themselves may have insufficiently benefitted by it, parents increasingly may find themselves simply unwilling to do so, even if they are financially able. A general loss of confidence in the usefulness (never mind worthiness) of higher education by the public at large may develop into a real problem in the future.

If it does, then someone a couple generations down the road may find themselves in the same shoes as Senator Cassiodorus in the early 6th Century, when, having founded a monastery far from the ruined and depopulated cities of Barbarian-occupied Italy, he found himself having to write a book of basic grammar for his monks to help him teach them how to read and write, since literacy had nearly evaporated in the years preceding the collapse of the Western Empire. Furthermore, Cassiodorus assembled a basic educational curriculum of seven subjects that he intended to serve as a basis for which to keep the flame of learning lit until such time as civilization could be restored. Of course, thus it was from Cassiodorus himself that we directly received the Seven Liberal Arts, from which our own system of education ultimately derives.

The day may be not too far off that it may be a very good idea to build one's own library stocked with the materials necessary for a solid basic level of education - at home.

[Penta]

Wonderful theorizing, Norfolk...

But unfortunately it doesn't really help matters now. Which is important because, to put it plainly, if you thought the home mortgage crisis sucks, think about what the student loan crisis will be like, especially when you consider that student loans are one of very few types of debt that cannot be discharged through bankruptcy.

All hail the creation of the new American underclass, that tried to join the middle class like their parents...and found that the ladder had been pulled up behind the old folks.

[Rex Brynen]

I'm sure that there are a great many mediocre educational experiences, and a great many students who feel that they didn't get what they wanted out of their education. However, Norfolk, in general I just don't agree.

I think, in general, we do a better job now of teaching undergraduates than we did 25 years ago when I was studying for my BA. As I've said before, the students I see are bright, motivated, frequently bi- or trilingual, plugged in, and generally kick ass (in an academic sense, of course). They've also got access to information that was beyond our wildest dreams in the pre-web days.

[Norfolk]

I'm sure that there are a great many mediocre educational experiences, and a great many students who feel that they didn't get what they wanted out of their education. However, Norfolk, in general I just don't agree.

I think, in general, we do a better job now of teaching undergraduates than we did 25 years ago when I was studying for my BA. As I've said before, the students I see are bright, motivated, frequently bi- or trilingual, plugged in (in an academic sense, of course). They've also got access to information that was beyond our wildest dreams in the pre-web days.

You see, feel, and experience far more in Higher Education than I ever have Rex, and mine is only one person's view. You may well be correct, and you are certainly in a better position to judge that than I. But from my own observations and from what my friends and I experienced at university, this is what things seemed to boil down to, more or less, and I can't seem to help but perceive that that's how things have become. As I said though, this may well be a mistaken conclusion.

But I have seen more than enough of people in Penta's predicament to really wonder just what is indeed occurring vis-a-vis higher education and the workforce. It is increasingly unsettling to my mind.

[SteveMetz]

You see, feel, and experience far more in Higher Education than I ever have Rex, and mine is only one person's view. You may well be correct, and you are certainly in a better position to judge that than I. But from my own observations and from what my friends and I experienced at university, this is what things seemed to boil down to, more or less, and I can't seem to help but perceive that that's how things have become. As I said though, this may well be a mistaken conclusion.

But I have seen more than enough of people in Penta's predicament to really wonder just what is indeed occurring vis-a-vis higher education and the workforce. It is increasingly unsettling to my mind.

Having a kid who is a college sophmore and one who is in the application profess right now, I've taken 17 college visits over the past 24 months, I too feel that vast improvements have been made in undergraduate education. To give on example, I'm sure I was a very low priority for my undergraduate adviser following his research, teaching graduate students, and teaching undergraduates. At my daughter's university, they had full time advisers.

To be frank, I wanted to slap Penta and scream, "No one promised you anything but an opportunity. Just get over the whiny sense of entitlement."

If the sole reason for pursuing higher education is employability, a kid should go to a tech school. This reminds me of a story I read in the Chronicle of Higher Education a few years ago. It interviewed a number of people who had gone through Duke's new Ph.D. program in--and I'm not making this up--Queer Studies. Then they were complaining because after all the work they'd put in, for some strange reason they couldn't find jobs. Moral of the story: adults accept responsibility for their own decisions including bad ones.

Dang, when did I become my grandfather?

[skiguy]

Well, Steve, I AM a grandfather, so here's my take.
I doubt, I really doubt, that I'm the only one who can say that among my peers - there are opportunities, yes. But we were promised that once we got into college, we were at least going to have a vaguely decent job.
Who promised you this?

I'm an old guy going for his UG degree, no one promised me anything. Yes, ultimately I hope to get employment in something that is at least closely related to my field of study, but there may be some problems (security clearance issues). I'm not going to let that hold me back. If it causes a problem, then I'll do something else, like not get a graduate degree in intelligence, or find some other alternative.

Penta, you should be getting an education because you have the desire to learn, not because you want to get a job. Math sucks. I hate it. It's boring and depressing, but it's a required course. I'll work just as hard to get an A in that class as I would in any other class I take.

JMO

[selil]

I tell my students I am there to offer them the opportunity to become educated. I also tell them often that I don't do training I'm there to educate them. What's the difference? In a nutshell do you want your daughter receiving sex training or sex education? I have long discussions with my students about the fact that I may give them the opportunity to become educated I am also the gate keeper on the discipline and like some fat sphinx they must answer my questions to pass.

This year I'm on a "half" sabbatical while I finish my PhD course work. I'm teaching half my normal load and all of that distance learning. The students are despondent as I'm not there for normal office hours and usually I have a line. The students think they are coming there to get a piece of paper to get a job. I disabuse them of that trite thought rapidly. I've whacked on my Dean and Vice Chancellors when they say things like we're training the future work force. I'm not popular at dinner parties. I know that my discipline is going to be out of date before they graduate. I have to educate my students to think. I am teaching my students to get the job that hasn't even been created yet (http://selil.com/?p=86).

I have ran across interesting phenomenon with my students. Companies work hard to recruit my students, the name of the University, the discipline, the history of the program, but the success of past graduates is the real reason they're sought after. The companies talk about being positive, and great places to work. If the companies lied my students quit. BS my students and they'll walk and find other employment. Employers who tell students it's hard work, long hours, and we pay you well get dreadnoughts on task. It could be the same person. It's kind of fun to get the baby-boomer calling complaining that my students don't trust anybody over 30, and are more interested in sex than say assembly language programming... Uh.. DUH!

[Norfolk]

To be frank, I wanted to [] scream, "No one promised you anything but an opportunity. Just get over the whiny sense of entitlement."

If the sole reason for pursuing higher education is employability, a kid should go to a tech school. This reminds me of a story I read in the Chronicle of Higher Education a few years ago. It interviewed a number of people who had gone through Duke's new Ph.D. program in--and I'm not making this up--Queer Studies. Then they were complaining because after all the work they'd put in, for some strange reason they couldn't find jobs. Moral of the story: adults accept responsibility for their own decisions including bad ones.

Dang, when did I become my grandfather?

Excellent post Steve. There is simply too much taken for granted, and (most of) the younger generation has never really had to face harsh adversity. Two full generations, and a third underway, have mostly grown up without having to overcome the real, grinding hardships, rejection, and consequences of failure that even our grandparents had to. Even for them, in some cases it was still do-or-die.

My maternal grandparents survived the Great Depression living in a log shack in the forest (literally), my grandfather taking jobs as they came available until WWII and he joined the Air Force. My paternal grandfather likewise worked odd jobs until WWII, joined the Army, and survived (barely) a German POW camp in Bavaria- and was ever grateful to the US Army for liberating him. When the GIs, shocked by the condition they found him and the other POWs in, asked how they survived, my grandfather told them about the horse's head a farmer gave them to put in their soup. That's how they survived. It ain't like that now, not for a long time. People take much too much for granted now, and are encouraged wherever they turn in such expectations.

skiguy and selil make excellent points too, and about the real purpose of Higher Education, namely, to educate, not train/indoctrinate/prepare-for-a-career, etc., but to learn, and to learn how to learn. It is not enough to say that this is to encourage creativity and to develop critical thinking; it is rather that the purpose of higher education is to develop proper judgement, and this is not only universally applicable, but universally necessary. No number of "school-trained" businessmen gathered around the executive conference table can make the proper decision about economic trends and where to make investments if all they have are school solutions - the recurring losses of huge corporations over and over, often in the stupidest ways, are blunt testimony to the dearth of good judgement in the corporate/financial worlds.

The expectation that colleges and universities exist to prepare people for jobs and careers is a false one, and it is an abuse of the purpose of higher education. Unfortunately, it is encouraged by institutions of higher education themselves, and parents and their children can hardly turn on the TV or open a newspaper without being exhorted to go to university so they can get a job or a career. When far too many people are going to university with these manufactured expectations in mind, and uncomfortably many are coming out and never even approaching their expectations in job or career, a problem is brewing, and not just a small one. It is going to grow over time, and if it isn't dealt with properly, it may become a societal one in due time.

I would have to add the qualification though that here in Canada, there is quite an overabundance of people with degrees and a quite a dearth of employment opportunities for them; I suspect that in the U.S. the situation is perhaps a little more encouraging - in Canada it is certainly developing into a problem - I believe marc mentioned something along these lines on this or another thread some time ago.

[marct]

Hi Norfolk,

The expectation that colleges and universities exist to prepare people for jobs and careers is a false one, and it is an abuse of the purpose of higher education. Unfortunately, it is encouraged by institutions of higher education themselves, and parents and their children can hardly turn on the TV or open a newspaper without being exhorted to go to university so they can get a job or a career.

Good point, but it is tricky, especially in Canada. There are three, inter-twining expectations running here:

A university education is job / career preparation;
A university degree will get you a job; and
A university degree is the minimum qualification for a job.On the first, I agree - a university degree should not be viewed as preparation for either a job or a career. BTW, I think it is important to point out a couple of things in this area. First, "job" is moving back to it's pre-1840 meaning of a "morsel" or "piece" of work (from the Irish Gaelic Gob, beakfull or bite), and "career, in its 1840+ meaning is disappearing (it comes from the French and means the systematic holding of offices within an organization - that died in the 1970's). Second, the "average" number of careers is running at about 8 per working lifetime in North America right now.

Expectation #2 is just not supported by the data, while expectation #3, which is a root assumption of much of the recent (say past 10 years) HRIS systems is quite valid (I did a conference paper on this back in 1999 available here (http://marctyrrell.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/surfing.pdf)).

I would have to add the qualification though that here in Canada, there is quite an overabundance of people with degrees and a quite a dearth of employment opportunities for them; I suspect that in the U.S. the situation is perhaps a little more encouraging - in Canada it is certainly developing into a problem - I believe marc mentioned something along these lines on this or another thread some time ago.

Actually, I would say that t already is a problem and has been for the past decade or so. Put bluntly, the "value" of a degree has been watered down so badly that a 4 year BA is worth less than what a 1960's high school degree used to be worth. The last data I saw on school to work transitions in Canada, from 2005, showed that under 10% of people with only a BA were actually working in the field they trained for.

I suspect that this over credentialization is partially responsible for the increasing emphasis on job training vs. education. I know that in Ontario, the government created a rather large pot of funds that were split amongst the universities who placed the highest number of their graduates in jobs, while the lower placing universities got nada from it.

[Rex Brynen]

The last data I saw on school to work transitions in Canada, from 2005, showed that under 10% of people with only a BA were actually working in the field they trained for.

I'm not sure what this means in the social sciences and liberal arts, however--we're not teaching people to become, say, political scientists or anthropologists, but rather to develop research skills, think analytically, write well, and hone their mental agility so that they can fulfill a variety of roles in the private and public sectors. (This quite in addition to the intrinsic personal value in higher education.)

This is why most universities (my own included) have moved in the last decade to lessen the degree of required specialization, emphasize minor as well as major programmes, etc.

[Norfolk]

Hi Marc,

Could not agree more.:cool:

Incidently, the situation that has developed in Canada, and I rather suspect is developing in the U.S., brings to mind some of the things that have occurred in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, et al. One of our other threads has been describing and discussing at some length how there is a significant body of middle-class people in their 20's and 30's who have university educations (particularly in engineering as well as computer science, medicine, etc.), many of whom cannot find worthwhile job opportunities in their home societies, and have formed an underclass of sorts that now serves as a recruitment pool for extremist groups and terrorist organizations.

Before I go too far in creating an impression that such is the future for North America with a growing population of disaffected university graduates, I would say that other conditions that strongly contribute to the development of extremist groups and terrorists organizations have not reached, for the most part, a critical level. This is not to deny that North America is not host to more terrorists organizations than anywhere else; but it is to make a distinction between the nature of most of their activities here (recruitment, fundraising, political lobbying, planning, etc.), and actual operations overseas.

But I am proposing that a growing "underclass" of university graduates with unreasonable expectations (admittedly raised and encouraged in those expectations by society as a whole and higher education itself in particular - not to single out higher education for disproportionate blame) encountering harsh reality and giving in to disillusionment and disaffection is a potential base in the future for real trouble. In the not-so-distant future we may be faced with our own home-grown malcontents and extremists, particularly if conditions in the future are considerably changed from now - serious economic downturn, social fragmentation, identity politics, the personal and social effects of isolation, etc.

Hi Rex,

I quite agree. The universities must somehow accomplish two things at the same time: 1. offer an education to students that is above all else about developing their learning, their thought, and their judgement - specific, "technical" skills and knowledge being secondary and complementary to that; and 2., pry open and escape from the deadly hold of the popular expections of universities as existing principally for job and career preparation, and that said "should" lead to employment more or less commensurate with the level of "preparation" received.

This is certainly not to say that universities should not fully educate, for example, biology students in the scientific aspects of their discipline, or English students in their craft; but it is to say that in all cases, the development of the student's mind and judgement is the paramount consideration of higher education; former business students without developed critical thinking, learning skills, and good judgement may be disasters waiting to happen when placed in charge of large resources, or students of history who have been indoctrinated in the fashionable theories or views of the day, but could not turn around someday and teach their own students any better about the history of their country or the consequences of certain events other than to offer some half-baked nonsense that leaves their charges in more or less ignorance. (Please do not deduct marks for my dreadfull run-on sentence here:o.)

marc: thanks for the link - I rather enjoyed your piece, and I've saved it on my hard-drive.:)

[SteveMetz]

I think you've touched on a key security issues that is seldom analyzed in any rigorous way: how does a society channel off and control the aggression of young males? This sounds glib but I'm serious--things like sports and video games help. The problem in much of the Islamic world (and I realize this a gross generalization which many people won't like) is that the only outlets are making babies and venting through extremism. I really think we'd to more to augment our security if exported X Boxes as enthusiastically as we exported democracy. I'm afraid our senior leaders have forgotten what it's like to be 19 and pissed off.

[SWJED]

... 19 and pissed off.

... and with few constructive options.

[SteveMetz]

... and with few constructive options.

Thing is--and this is a point I tried to make in my Rethinking Insurgency monograph--they have to be constructive options that appeal to a 19 year old. The Bush strategy of allowing people to vote every few years and creating some menial jobs ain't gonna cut the mustard (to put it in technical terms).

[Norfolk]

I think you've touched on a key security issues that is seldom analyzed in any rigorous way: how does a society channel off and control the aggression of young males? This sounds glib but I'm serious--things like sports and video games help. The problem in much of the Islamic world (and I realize this a gross generalization which many people won't like) is that the only outlets are making babies and venting through extremism. I really think we'd to more to augment our security if exported X Boxes as enthusiastically as we exported democracy.

The best solution is universal conscription IMO - putting young men under the eagle eyes and firm hands of professional officers and NCOs. Next best is sports - until you think of Brit football fans and Central American republics going to war over soccer matches.:rolleyes:

X-Box is effective, though, at keep the rabble off the streets; but like the Roman forums and their gladitorial and animal matches, this also serves to ennervate them, and that's not good for society as a whole. A good chunk of the male working-age population sitting around at home after work (if they're working) playing X-Box and not engaging in family life leads to all sorts of other serious societal problems.

Besides, some bored and innovative individuals just might get the same idea someday as that professor at MIT and hook up a few together to produce his own supercomputer, which he claims is capable of wreaking all sorts of havoc - though he in fact uses it for research to counter said. We might just be trading in suicide bombers for cyber bombers.

I don't foresee a solution for youthful male aggression in the Near East, because as far as I see it, the conditions, issues, and problems are so far out of reach of any thinking that I've ever been able to grasp. Hopefully there are others who can.

As for the potential for young male aggression in Western socities, universall conscription is a must in my view. Young men must learn duty, order, discipline, obedience, and self-control; and particularly within the context of assuming their responsibilites as citizens. There has been far too much emphasis and leeway given on "rights", and responsibility has largely been ignored and even maligned. Time for a permanent change, and to help head off "underclass" situations. By extension, tt is also time to redress in the U.S. the neglect of the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution, the right to bear arms and the accompanying duty of all citizens to be part of a "well-regulated militia". Both sides in the gun-debate tend to emphasize one half of this while ignoring the other.

[Norfolk]

Steve, I think Jill has an excellent point and that the two of you are,in effect, arguing apples and oranges. I think that it is important to distinguish between a critique of the process of doctrine writing and a critique of the doctrine itself. I certainly ave no difficulty with your comments on Price's critique of the process, he doesn't seem to know what he is talking about there, but I think that Jill is right about the citations being a good place to start for a critique in the area of content. If nothing else, the definitions used contain assumptions of reality that may, or may not, be the best available (I know they aren't for the definition of ritual).

So, where to start on the critique of the doctrine itself? While I'll admit that doctrine is about satisficing behaviour (i.e. good enough to work, not necessarily the "best"), I think it is also important that it be extensible in a theoretically coherent manner. For example, the definition of ritual is highly limited and extensible only to observable behaviour - not a position that Turner held in his later work and inherently problematic if we wanted to extend the work to include IO and PSYOPS.

Marc

I concurr, though I would qualify that first paragraph by saying that while I agree with Jill that statements of Doctrine should have full citations, references, etc., they should be provided for the reader to have a full grasp of what it is he is reading, and to enquire into these other sources in order to expand his knowledge; not as a sort of academic "check" or system of "proof". Steve is utterly correct in that the manuals are written for non-academic purposes and in a non-academic form, but I would add that the provision of citations and the like is strictly intended to provide brief additional information/explanations on specific matters as well as additional sources to consult in-depth - not to provide an academic-style system of verification.

Furthermore, and I believe that it was Steve who also mentioned something like this, there should be a separation of the doctrinal material into at least two complementary documents, perhaps more. FM 3-24 may have been better written as even more of a "capstone" manual than it was, with full citations, references, sources, the works. But, it should also have been published in tandem with a complementary, but substantially more practically-oriented manual for field use that does not bother in particular with formalities. TTP's in particular perhaps should have been dealt with less in FM 3-24 than they are are, and instead have left that much more strictly to that of an actual companion "field" manual. I have observed that U.S. Army manuals tend to be rather "wordy" by comparison to their USMC and Commonwealth counterparts, and FM 3-24 certainly follows in that tradition.

As far as the COIN Doctrine itself goes, I'm not sufficiently comfortable with criticquing it myself, but I would say that any "Capstone" Doctrinal Pub should concern itself more with developing - helping to educate rather than indoctrinate - its readers thinking about its particular subject matter, and leave more of the practical matters of the subject to complementary pubs for field use. If FM 3-24 is succeeding in helping its readers to educate themselves properly on COIN, then it's doing its job, and that's the only reason it should have citations and the like, to enable its readers to continue to educate themselves, not to serve as a sort of academic verification system.

As for some of the present criticisms from some quarters of academia, they are clearly out of their league with the subject matter, and they should leave such criticism to people who are masters of the subject. Amateurs need not apply:

[skiguy]

how does a society channel off and control the aggression of young males?
What about sports? Soccer, wrestling, etc. Introduce American football to them (that'll channel the aggression!)

[Ken White]

Worked for me...

[SteveMetz]

Worked for me...

That's the exact reason that I argued in Rethinking Insurgency that women's empowerment should be a central component of counterinsurgency. If you look at inner city gangs you see that it's not JUST have girls, but it's having empowered girls that constrains male aggression. After all, Sageman notes that most terrorists have families or girlfriends. The Timothy McVeigh--I'm-going-to-blow-something-up-because-I-can't-get-a-girl phenomenon is relatively rare.

[SWJED]

That's the exact reason that I argued in Rethinking Insurgency that women's empowerment should be a central component of counterinsurgency.

Sorry for being so short on words, multi-tasking at the moment. One word does, however, sum up your observation - bingo.

[marct]

Hi Steve,

I think you've touched on a key security issues that is seldom analyzed in any rigorous way: how does a society channel off and control the aggression of young males?

It's a perennial problem in all societies that I've ever looked at < sigh>. I don't think Norfolk's suggestion of universal conscription would work, at least if it was limited to the military. I think it *might* work if it was general "government service" which could include, but not be limited to, military service. Also, it would have to be for both men and women, and should be available at the end of high school rather than based on age. Think of a combination of conscription with Roosevelt's New Deal...

One of the big problem with North American society in general is that we don't have any really good rites of passage, and this could act as one. In many societies, these R-o-P's act as the defining mechanism to shift a child into being an adult (teenager is not a normal cultural category!).

[SteveMetz]

One of the big problem with North American society in general is that we don't have any really good rites of passage,

Well, for those who grew up in the Southwest, there was a ritual involving a case of beer, a trip to Tijuana, a spooky hotel room, and a donkey.

[Penta]

Steve,

I really didn't want that image. It was all well and good until you brought up the donkey.:P

On that note, to defend myself:

Yes, yesterday, I vented. Loudly.

I understand your points in re undergrad education being to open up opportunities...But those opportunities aren't opening. At all.

And, to be blunt...20-40 years ago, when (I'm guessing), most of those speaking here were actually of traditional college age, maybe you could reasonably speak of a college's purpose being to "educate" in some broad sense.

I don't remember any time in the past 10 years in which that was any more than lip-service.

Yes, I'm a bit more...embittered because of my disabilities. I grant that. College was supposed to be the great, if not equalizer, then at least it was supposed to give me a fighting chance to compete on remotely the same playing field.

I know damn well I'm not entitled to anything, thanks. It's actually insulting to hear someone say that, because I didn't slack off during college. I didn't have a social life; I didn't go to a single party at all during my time in college. Insofar as I could focus, I was focused to near-obsession on grades. Exactly, I thought, like I was supposed to be.

Yes, I screwed up. Repeatedly. I haven't denied that in this thread, notice.

But I'm not just hearing this from me, I'm hearing the same general complaint from my peers: That going to college screwed us over.

For most of my peers, our working lives haven't even begun. To begin them, most had to take out loans nearly equal to what Steve's generation (guessing at your age, you're about 55-60, Steve?) would have had to take out to buy their first home.

You get equity in a house, at least; not really in a degree. Degree is more like a car, in my estimation - it loses value as soon as you get it.

So, yeah. There are a lot of us who are bitter, disaffected, and grumpy.

Because it's the rare 18-19 year old who goes to college completely because they want to - in a large part, it's because our parents (your generation, speaking broadly) expected it, demanded it of us. Because we were led to believe that it'd be the essential key to becoming independent - not that it'd be the only thing required, but that it'd be an essential component. Not just for a few years, not as a fad...But for our entire lives. Yeah, in case someone forgot, we've had the life-or-death necessity of college preached to us since almost as soon as we could talk.

So we did. We went. To a greater or lesser extent, depending on the person, we worked. Because at the end of all of this, we expected a payoff. That if nothing else, we'd at least get a chance to prove ourselves.

That hasn't happened, and now we're deemed spoiled brats for pointing out the contradiction between what we were led to expect and what the reality has turned out to be?

Norfolk,

...Universal conscription would not work. Not only do you have to deal with the substantial problem of what to do with those (like me) who, through no fault of our own, will never be physically qualified for military service (unless you'd like to say that not only am I lazy and spoiled, but that retinopathy of prematurity and cerebral palsy are my fault?), but you have to deal with the, ahem, complete and total hypocrisy of the fact that the generation that burned their draft cards now wants to have the younger generations get drafted.

And that's just to start.

[Norfolk]

I understand your points in re undergrad education being to open up opportunities...But those opportunities aren't opening. At all.

And, to be blunt...20-40 years ago, when (I'm guessing), most of those speaking here were actually of traditional college age, maybe you could reasonably speak of a college's purpose being to "educate" in some broad sense.

I don't remember any time in the past 10 years in which that was any more than lip-service.

Yes, I'm a bit more...embittered because of my disabilities. I grant that. College was supposed to be the great, if not equalizer, then at least it was supposed to give me a fighting chance to compete on remotely the same playing field.

I know [] I'm not entitled to anything, thanks. It's actually insulting to hear someone say that, because I didn't slack off during college. I didn't have a social life; I didn't go to a single party at all during my time in college. Insofar as I could focus, I was focused to near-obsession on grades. Exactly, I thought, like I was supposed to be.

Yes, I screwed up. Repeatedly. I haven't denied that in this thread, notice.

But I'm not just hearing this from me, I'm hearing the same general complaint from my peers: That going to college screwed us over.

For most of my peers, our working lives haven't even begun. To begin them, most had to take out loans nearly equal to what Steve's generation (guessing at your age, you're about 55-60, Steve?) would have had to take out to buy their first home.

You get equity in a house, at least; not really in a degree. Degree is more like a car, in my estimation - it loses value as soon as you get it.

So, yeah. There are a lot of us who are bitter, disaffected, and grumpy.

Because it's the rare 18-19 year old who goes to college completely because they want to - in a large part, it's because our parents (your generation, speaking broadly) expected it, demanded it of us. Because we were led to believe that it'd be the essential key to becoming independent - not that it'd be the only thing required, but that it'd be an essential component. Not just for a few years, not as a fad...But for our entire lives. Yeah, in case someone forgot, we've had the life-or-death necessity of college preached to us since almost as soon as we could talk.

So we did. We went. To a greater or lesser extent, depending on the person, we worked. Because at the end of all of this, we expected a payoff. That if nothing else, we'd at least get a chance to prove ourselves.

That hasn't happened, and now we're deemed spoiled brats for pointing out the contradiction between what we were led to expect and what the reality has turned out to be?

Norfolk,

...Universal conscription would not work. Not only do you have to deal with the substantial problem of what to do with those (like me) who, through no fault of our own, will never be physically qualified for military service (unless you'd like to say that not only am I lazy and spoiled, but that retinopathy of prematurity and cerebral palsy are my fault?), but you have to deal with the, ahem, complete and total hypocrisy of the fact that the generation that burned their draft cards now wants to have the younger generations get drafted.

And that's just to start.

Yes, Penta, as both marc and I have observed, higher education is in great part sold on a false promise that it is a ticket to upward mobility, and parents and children are subjected to it constantly. I finished my M.A. in 2004, and absolutely nothing has come out of it employment-wise; I've simply had to make do working at factory jobs that haven't surpassed $13.25/hr, with long hours and minimal benefits, so I have experienced no shortage of grief and frustration in my own case.

Most of my university friends have been little better off (one did exceptionally well - as a tax lawyer); a few were still working the jobs they had in high school (working for a moving company), despite the fact that one had a BA and the other both a BA and an MA. Go figure. And there's been no shortage of bitterness in some of the phone calls exchanged, despite us having more degrees than you could shake a stick at. But in time I have learned the utter futility of resentment, and simply to carry on. And this is what our grandparents and prior generations had to deal with; life's not fair, and it only aggravates the situation to dwell on that. Move on as best one can, because nothing good will come of the alternative. That's how they survived in the old days.

Now, as to conscription, hehe.;): Both Penta and marc are quite correct that Universal Conscription, if strictly Military, cannot work. I do not conceive of universal conscription as a cure-all, just as a treatment, so to speak, and as marc pointed out, National Service can take many forms - Germany is the most comprehensive example of this. But universal conscription for military service is the backbone of any such program; bear in mind however, that even in the late 19th Century, the British Army performed a survey that found only 60% of the male population of military age to be medically fit for military service. Given trends observed by military doctors since WWII, that figure is probably down to about 40% now (at best). As such, those inducted for National Service would have better than even chances of ending up working in a hospital ward, public works, or an administrative post rather than the military.

However, there are problems with National Service in general, and Universal (Military) Conscription in particular. The first is that many people, not least voters, will not like the idea of public service "imposed" upon them. They don't seem to mind the benefits of public institutions, and the rights and freedoms that those institutions preserve and promote; but many people also consider that they have a right to avoid, limit, or flout the public duties and responsibilities that they themselves must bear as part of their share in preserving and promoting those rights and freedoms. Freedom ain't free; someone, somewhere, someday, somehow, must pay the price, and it's only fair that all citizens do so. It's also only practical that they do so, for the sake of the common good, rather than the entire burden being off-loaded onto the backs of a few.

What I am describing is piety, the old Roman word for the assumption and carrying out of duties and responsibilities that are not freely chosen, but are demanded by the common good. They can be shirked, avoided, denied, but they cannot be be justly abrogated. The present ethos of our society, so self-consciensously celebrated and pursued (and passed on to the offspring) by elements of a certain generation born after WWII, is by contrast one of impiety, the shirking of just but unwanted duties for the pursuit of selfishness. The political opposition, practically speaking, to consciption or any form of National Service is at present, overwhelming. But as time goes on, that may change.

The second problem with National Service is that perhaps 60% or more of the young male population will not be handed over to the tender care of the Military. In some cases, such as in serious physical or psychological disability, that is an irreducible reality and obviously such people would perform National Service in another capacity, although that still may be as a civilian employee of the military or of the defence department. Where it becomes somewhat problematic is in the cases of the majority of the 60% who are not seriously disabled, but are still not medically fit for military service - and the best place for these is in some sort of Public Works system - not unlike the German Labour Services - to let the young males still work off their aggression under supervision.

I can offer no clear solutions, but I do propose some partial remedies, and National Service together with Universal Conscription is about the best that I can come up with that also provides a long track record of achievement (good and bad) that can be looked at and thoroughly considered.

[Ken White]

...
...Universal conscription would not work... but you have to deal with the, ahem, complete and total hypocrisy of the fact that the generation that burned their draft cards now wants to have the younger generations get drafted.


Good shot, Penta. :D

[Norfolk]

Good shot, Penta. :D

Good thing I'm not much over 30!:D

[Ken White]

boomers ... :D

[SteveMetz]

Steve,


But I'm not just hearing this from me, I'm hearing the same general complaint from my peers: That going to college screwed us over.



Get some peers who opted NOT to go to college and compare career prospects with them. Then maybe your situation won't seem so glum. (My father was a plumber and my grandfathers were a truck driver and a factory worker, so I have a foot in both "collars").

While I'm not quite *that* old, I did pay most of my way through college. It took more than a decade to pay off my debts. Sure the total wasn't as high as today's students but my first job with a BA paid $9K. Everything is relative.

I'm sorry, but I still think that you imagined the "promises" made to you. I have one kid in college and another getting ready to start. They've never been promised anything but opportunity.

I'll tell ya, Tom Brokaw needs to write another book: The Whiniest Generation

[selil]

I think a lot of people in college see the adds for "Get your degree in six weeks", and then apply the same logic to a university education. Before the industrial revolution there were basically two degrees. A bachelors of science and bachelors of arts and letters were the only two options. A lawyer got the arts degree and a doctor got the science degree. Now the university is filled with options and degrees. Somebody posted that they got a MA and couldn't find a high paying job. There is no gurantee of a high paying job. Worse some degrees set you up for working for free. A seminary degree isn't known for being a high paying wage degree.

A university degree isn't supposed to be easy. Part of the problem in higher education is that people expect to get a degree. I make my students work for it. Hard. Students arrange their entire schedule around taking my classes. If they whine about the course work being hard their fellow students tell them to suck it up. I have some of the highest student ratings in the University system, and especially high for STEM. Not all my students survive but most who are willing to try thrive. They are motivated and do the work because they can see results. If somebody complained that they had to do a problem 20 times in my classes their fellow students would descend on them like wolves wondering what their fellow student thought a job meant. I don't do behavioristic education as I think Pavlov's dog was an idiot.

I shouldn't post before my first cup of coffee.

[Steve Blair]

Penta, IMO, makes some very valid observations. Many of the kids I see here are in school because they are more or less forced to go by their parents. Some don't have the faintest idea why they're in college aside from that.

And Steve...when people complain about this generation being whiny, maybe they should look at the parents. Many of these kids have been indulged, ignored, pampered, and generally held to lower (or 'special' in the case of athletes) standards for a good deal of their lives. I've seen some kids really turn around when given a challenge, only to have the parents complain that someone might be "expecting too much" of their precious little child. You may not have promised your kids anything, but there are parents out there that do. "Get an engineering degree and you'll start at 50k a year." It's often the parents pushing their kids into these majors, or feeding them false expectations about college and its outcomes. Popular media quite often does the same thing (when was the last time you saw a struggling, working class family on TV or in a movie that wasn't British?).

Sure, there's whiners in the group. But all generations have them. What concerns me more is the condescension that seems to come with much of the higher education push. One of my good friends ended up leaving college and going to technical school to get his mechanic certification. He got all kinds of crap for that decision, especially from his Boomer parents who considered anything less than a college degree a failure. But he's happier now than he was then and making much more than quite a few of his degree-endowed peers. I don't believe that a tech school is somehow "less worthy," though that is the image that I tend to believe started with the '60s generation who often used higher education for reasons other than education ("avoiding their junior year overseas" is one way I've heard it described). To justify that evasion, they had to somehow endow higher education with qualities it never really had before (universal entitlement for one) and then push it on their kids as the only way to success. That's my personal rant on the subject, anyhow.

[marct]

If you folks don't mind (and even if you do :D), I'm going to relate his back to a case of bad popularized theology.

Back when universities started, ~ 13th century +/-, the concept of the Great Chain of Being was pretty much a "given" in the West. A university education was designed to bring out the skills necessary for gentlemen and clerics to fulfill their role in life. Certainly by the 17th century, a university education was, probably, the fastest route out of your birth rank and into the upper middle classes (aka the bureaucracy or <shudder> becoming a lawyer :(</shudder>). The system was designed to be hard, especially on those from families who were not of the right class and upbringing (don't speak Latin? Don't bother applying!).

While this class based system was eroded in he 1920's and 30's, the death knell was after WW II, especially in North America. The theology inherent in the Great Chain of Being was still present, in the collective unconscious as it were (i.e. degree = white collar job), but the old Protestant Ethic (and Catholic vocation) components were missing as they were, and are, in most of modern society.

Penta is, understandably, angry and, while I have a lot of agreement with Steve M's position of "suck it up", it just doesn't do much good to say that without talking a bit about the system that makes it that way. Selil noted that he works his students hard - so do I. One of the greatest personal moments for me as a teacher was having a student I failed in a course thanking me for failing him :eek: - not something you hear every day, and certainly not PC!

If we look at the way the university system is structured, at least in Canada, profs get slammed if they have high failure rates before they get tenure. Class sizes are increasingly large (I've taught classes of over 450 students), and the skills required for a class that size have less to do with education than with entertainment :wry:.

The reality is that, as far as a university education is concerned, you get out of it what you put into it IFF you realize that you must educate yourself. Some of your profs will be glad to help you with that process, but many are swamped and others, I'm sorry to say, just don't give a rats' posterior. The "trick" that I used and I encourage my students to use is simple - talk to your profs, find out the ones who do care and ask them for their advice. Or, to put it another way, find yourself one or more rabbi's (mentors) - tag into their personal networks, pick their brains and create the education you should be getting.

[infsid]

Interesting read about antropologists deploying in support of US Forces and interests and the debate it has caused. Again, it is the selfish American who can not see beyond his nose that we are really trying to give these people a better opportunity and the HTTs will help. All to often we (Americans) are focused on the what we can do to help someone and then move onto the next someone, great for triage, but bad if we want to develop an understanding of other cultures and peoples and help them move forward.
At the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, we have incorporated a Human Terrain Team into the rotational brigade so they learn what the other is about. The HTT members learn what a day in the life of a Soldier is like, by going through patrols in sector and interacting with civilians on the battlefield and the brigade combat team gets an idea on what the HHT will give to them, a better understanding of the local culture along with a better ability to forsee how US actions might be percieved by the local population and how the unintended consequences might be averted or contained (long sentence I know). Yeah, these academics are helping US forces, but they are helping us understand the population so that we can end our involvement overseas by setting conditions to allow our withdrawal without a collapse of the government. As for the nay sayers, they can't get over themselves and don't have the stones to step out of the school yard and actually be apart of history instead of reading about it.

[skiguy]

More crap (http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2643.shtml) from the anti-COIN/HTT crowd. :rolleyes:
But a second development in the ongoing militarisation of State has been courtesy of the military’s new allies in the diplomats’ own Ivory Tower colleagues. The US Army and Marine Corps recently published its new Counterinsurgency Field Manual (No. 3-24), its new Little Red Book, at the prestigious University of Chicago Press, tastefully printed in a camouflage, faux-field ready edition, designed to slip into flack jackets or Urban Outfitter accessory bags. General (Dr) David Petraeus himself wrote the forward along with posterboy Lieutenant Colonel John Nagl, and Harvard JFK School of Government’s Sarah Sewell wrote the introduction. It has spawned a minor media orgy, with sexy Nagl decked out in parade dress pitching it in Newsweek and on all the TV networks as Petraeus’s intellectually fuelled “smart bomb” -- the secret weapon for victory in Iraq. In what looks like a surprise meeting of minds with the armchair diplomats, the Manual is being hyped by all as a move away from the crude logic of “shock and awe” in the common goal of pacifying the natives, or as it’s called in newspeak, “winning hearts and minds," through a new appreciation of local culture. The big stick’s “speak softly."

A co-author, one of a supposedly new breed of warrior-anthropologists, Montgomery McFate (curiously a woman), PhD (Yale), is currently the US Army’s Human Terrain System’s senior social science adviser. Human Terrain Teams (HTTs) -- I’m not making this up -- are now embedding anthropologists with troops operating in Iraq and Afghanistan, using ethnographic knowledge to advise and inform troops in the field, while travelling with armed escorts (Blackwater, anyone?) and are, in some instances, themselves armed and wearing uniforms, yet McFate incredibly maintains that these anthropologists are in compliance with basic anthropological ethical standards, that terrified locals used in research projects participate under conditions of “voluntary informed consent." When asked how voluntary ethical informed consent was produced in the presence of occupation soldiers and mercenaries, McFate told writer and anthropologist David Price that was not a problem because “indigenous local people out in rural Afghanistan are smart, and they can draw a distinction between a lethal unit of the US military and a non-lethal unit.”

[Ken White]

snide, condescending, trite and mellifluous in one article.

[J Wolfsberger]

...that terrified locals used in research projects participate under conditions of “voluntary informed consent."

Are these people really so dim that they think Iraq is a research project? I understand the ROE for the forum, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a way to describe this kind of thinking that doesn't use harsh language.

[goesh]

-ultimately we want a war where nobody gets hurt so I think it is a valid concern

[Penta]

Are these people really so dim that they think Iraq is a research project? I understand the ROE for the forum, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a way to describe this kind of thinking that doesn't use harsh language.

Perhaps I'm being charitable, but I think the concern is that non-affiliated researchers would be vierwed with the same fear as the military, possibly even after the conflict's end. Not so much a concern in Iraq, perhaps, but possibly valid in other places.

[Abu Suleyman]

At the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, we have incorporated a Human Terrain Team into the rotational brigade so they learn what the other is about. The HTT members learn what a day in the life of a Soldier is like, by going through patrols in sector and interacting with civilians on the battlefield and the brigade combat team gets an idea on what the HHT will give to them, a better understanding of the local culture along with a better ability to forsee how US actions might be percieved by the local population and how the unintended consequences might be averted or contained (long sentence I know). Yeah, these academics are helping US forces, but they are helping us understand the population so that we can end our involvement overseas by setting conditions to allow our withdrawal without a collapse of the government. As for the nay sayers, they can't get over themselves and don't have the stones to step out of the school yard and actually be apart of history instead of reading about it.

Sorry for the somewhat salty verbiage in the title. Nevertheless, I feel like we have tapped into a huge zit of discontent. And unfortunately that zit is not only particularly discontented, it also seems fairly irrelevant. Although this is a particularly heartening as it is a confirmation of my belief that there is a anti-academia bias (please remember that biases can be justified, and the biased always think that they are), although it seems to be considerably more widespread than the military. Nevertheless, whether it is a waste of time to go to college or frustrating to spend years to get a PhD. and then not be able to find a job is thoroughly outside the scope of the Small Wars Journal.

However, the use of HTT's at the NTC is germane. That we have clawed together enough knowledgeable people to help the military at least in the training box. I think this is a huge step forward. An even better option would be to allow people who are curious, or perhaps want peripheral and not as integral a role to participate in the NTC rotations. This would allow people to see that soldiers are just people like everyone else, and that indeed the military is interested in saving lives, and not taking them.

In the end, this all goes to the thesis I originally introduced, that better communication will lead to better results. Let the light shine in!

[120mm]

Grinding an axe "that way" leads to an inferior edge. Puts too much "curl" on the point of the edge.

My grandpap taught me that as a young pup.

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought you were all talking about me, behind my back.

[Norfolk]

Grinding an axe "that way" leads to an inferior edge. Puts too much "curl" on the point of the edge.

My grandpap taught me that as a young pup.

Well, they did say CHEAP N'EASY!:)

[120mm]

We had our first run of HTTs at JMRC in Europe. In general, it was a collision/train wreck/whatever you want to call it. Big Green doesn't want to give HTTs game play, and HTTs don't know how to play nice with Big Green.

As a writer, the initial HTT offering for training scenarios were pathetic, but I'll chalk that up to inexperience and the late nature of their entry into the field. We'll see what happens in the future.

One problem we have, is that everyone who comes from "the outside" feels compelled to give a lecture on how they contribute, regardless of the situation. When the ChOPS gives you the opportunity to introduce yourself, feel free to use 3 minutes, not 50.

[Tom Odom]

More along the lnes of what Drew just said from the Weekly Standard. Understand there is much I find disagreeable about this piece and like most neocon scribbiling the devil is defintely in the details. Still it is worth the look as a snap shot (with a filtered lens).
Best,
Tom

Anthropology Goes To War (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/368ixgbj.asp)

There are some things the Army needs in Afghanistan, but more academics are not at the top of the list.

By Ann Marlowe

At this point in the war on terror, even people who think David Galula is a trendy new chef are quick to point to the need for cultural understanding in successful counterinsurgency. Often, they are quicker still to beat up on our military for supposedly ignoring this. They are quite sure that if we just understood the Iraqis/Afghans/Shiites/Sunnis better, we would have made fewer mistakes. The military is ready to beat up on itself, too, although if you scan military journals, it seems to have spent much of the last few years retooling to fight small rather than large wars, and to emphasize counterinsurgency and nation-building rather than mere kinetics (aka killing).

We should learn the lessons of Vietnam and Algeria, we are earnestly told. Well, perhaps the most successful counterinsurgency operation ever mounted, David Galula's in Algeria, doesn't build the case for the overweening importance of cultural knowledge. The Algerians pacified thanks to Galula's insights were French-speaking (some of the leaders of the FLN barely spoke Arabic). The French took back territory from the rebels not because Galula convinced them that he understood their culture, but because he convinced them that their interests were better served by affiliation with France. (A dozen pages of Galula are worth more than anything written by anyone mentioned in this article. His 1963 Pacification in Algeria, reissued by RAND last year, is a witty, snappy, pre-PC read.)

[Rex Brynen]

More along the lnes of what drew said from the Weekly Standard. Understand there is much I find disagreeable about this piece and like most neocon scribbiling the devil is defintely in the details. Still it is worth the look as a snap shot (with a filtered lens).
Best,
Tom

Actually, although I could find lots to disagree with too, I found it a VERY useful piece.

First, she's absolutely right about nuance being everything.

Second, just because you're a newly-minted PhD with excellent references and field experience doesn't mean that you really understand the intersection of culture and politics. I know a great many PhDs that I wouldn't put anywhere near the field, because I think they would be more hindrance than help--and possibly even dangerous. There is a risk the HTS programme doesn't filter well enough, or that the need is so high that they let recruitment standards slip.

Third, I'm glad she called McFate on her use of the Patai book to provide insight into the "Arab mind.". I actually think its one of the worst books ever written on the ME, full of all kinds of stereotyped tripe. I was quite alarmed too when I saw McFate refer to it--its kind of like saying that one can get insight into COIN by watching Rambo.

Advanced graduate training in the social sciences means that you know lots more facts, and ought to have language skills. It hopefully means that you have honed your analytical, research, and writing skills. It means that you are equipped with all sorts of theoretical perspectives, which may be useful, useless, or counterproductive. It absolutely does not mean that you have any automatic political insight or diplomatic skills (which is precisely why MFAs don't rely on university transcripts when hiring FSOs), or can generate the empathy necessary to understand local needs and grievances, and anticipate and predict local behaviours.

[Tom Odom]

Third, I'm glad she called McFate on her use of the Patai book to provide insight into the "Arab mind.". I actually think its one of the worst books ever written on the ME, full of all kinds of stereotyped tripe. I was quite alarmed too when I saw McFate refer to it--its kind of like saying that one can get insight into COIN by watching Rambo.

Agreed and has been a long standing issue with me when quoted by wanna be "Arabists"

On Rambo, I do think we should have compound bows with explosive-tipped arrows (I can't wait to get a quiver full for next hunting season).

best

Tom

[marct]

Advanced graduate training in the social sciences means that you know lots more facts, and ought to have language skills. It hopefully means that you have honed your analytical and research skills. It means that you are equipped with all sorts of theoretical perspectives, which may be useful, useless, or counterproductive. It absolutely does not mean that you have any automatic political insight or diplomatic skills (which is precisely why MFAs don't reply on university transcripts when hiring FSOs), or can generate the empathy necessary to understand local needs and grievances, and anticipate and predict local behaviours.

What is scary about getting that training or, to be more specific, the degree, is the assumption on many people's part that you do have the skills, training and temperament (a labeling effect). In many ways, I would far prefer to have Anthropology graduate level training available rather than making Anthropologists available - at least that way it would be in-house.

[Tom Odom]

What is scary about getting that training or, to be more specific, the degree, is the assumption on many people's part that you do have the skills, training and temperament (a labeling effect). In many ways, I would far prefer to have Anthropology graduate level training available rather than making Anthropologists available - at least that way it would be in-house.


Truthfully what really needs to happen is have the FAO field broadened to include cultural anthropology as a subfield rather than continuing with strictly an area studies approach. I believe, Marc, that would address your concerns and improve the FAO field with greater grounding in anthropolgy. Now whether Big Green is willing to do that on a sustained basis is a large question; the fact that Dave Kilcullen is an anthropologist should add weight to the idea.

Although I did not address it in posting this, there is also some almost endemic sniping from the CA side of the house. That too has been a problem when reviewing possible fixes. I have seen CA authored studies that push cultural awarness to a degree that is simply not doable. Gratefully this author does make the point (in round about fashion) that the military is already improving in this arena, regardless of the HTT program.

Best

Tom

[marct]

Hi Tom,

Truthfully what really needs to happen is have the FAO field broadened to include cultural anthropology as a subfield rather than continuing with strictly an area studies approach. I believe, Marc, that would address your concerns and improve the FAO field with greater grounding in anthropolgy. Now whether Big Green is willing to do that on a sustained basis is a large question; the fact that Dave Kilcullen is an anthropologist should add weight to the idea.

That would, IMO, certainly be a very good start. I would also like to see much more work done on the Anthropology side as well in the Military Anthropology sub-field. The more I look at the problem, however, the less sanguine I am that it will be institutionally solved in a way that benefits both Anthropology and the military. Maybe it's time to bring back something like the military orders...:confused:

[SWCAdmin]

I got this e-mail, arriving in my inbox as if it was sent from me to me, but with a return path nestled within its header. Thanks to Alex for helping me send this to myself. :p


Greetings--

bill@smallwarsjournal.com (bill@smallwarsjournal.com) thinks this will be of interest to you:

"Montgomery McFate was exceptionally bright and articulate, but with the nervous manner of someone trying to sell a lemon."

http://savageminds.org/2007/11/17/montgomery-mcfate-was-exceptionally-bright-and-articulate-but-with-the-nervous-manner-of-someone-trying-to-sell-a-lemon/ (http://savageminds.org/2007/11/17/montgomery-mcfate-was-exceptionally-bright-and-articulate-but-with-the-nervous-manner-of-someone-trying-to-sell-a-lemon/)

Enjoy.

--
http://savageminds.org (http://savageminds.org)

[Beelzebubalicious]

According to the article by Anne Marlowe, in which she likens Dr. McFate to someone selling a lemon, she also states that:

They disparaged the Army’s approach in Afghanistan—where neither one of them has any meaningful experience—in order to market their program.

I find that a bit far-fetched and it's not supported by direct quotations - just her interpretation. I imagine that Dr. McFate might have pointed out that the Army's approach in Afghanistan could benefit from (more) Anthropological knowledge, training and advice and she certainly has been advocating for this. I don't see what's wrong with this. She's not saying there isn't any cultural knowledge or that HTT is supposed to be the source of it all, etc (which is essentially what Marlowe is writing).

Marlowe's piece is another poorly produced and through out piece which an agenda. From what I can see, Marlowe's agenda is show that she's really the expert and knows it all. The whole article is about her...

[SWJED]

My humble response (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/11/on-anthropology-goes-to-war-1/) to the Marlowe article.

[Tom Odom]

My humble response (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/11/on-anthropology-goes-to-war-1/) to the Marlowe article.


Dave

Great response. You put into words the crux of what was bothering me about the piece.

I still sense a "set up" of a naive observer from CA with criticisms against the HTT concept. Maybe I am reading too much into it but I have seen similar situations, as I know you have.

best
Tom

[wm]

While Marlowe may have been very disappointed in not embedding with a HTT, I do not see what substantive insights a very brief embed with a very new capability would have served her. http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/11/on-anthropology-goes-to-war-1/

A potential answer is as follows: If one has an axe to grind about an organization's inability to perform its assigned function, what better way to "prove" that thesis than to join up with the organization while it is still in the throes of organizing itself.

[marct]

Hi Wayne,

A potential answer is as follows: If one has an axe to grind about an organization's inability to perform its assigned function, what better way to "prove" that thesis than to join up with the organization while it is still in the throes of organizing itself.

Good point. At the same time, one has to wonder what the CA people think about the HTTs? Since they operate with an overlap, I suspect that there is some organizational friction involved.

I do find the critique of Montgomery McFate not being an area specialist somewhat moot - in which area and what defines a specialist? Her area, judging from her PhD research (which is always somewhat problematic) is insurgency / counter-insurgency. I also suspect that she has done an immense amount of reading and on the ground work in both Afghanistan and Iraq - certainly more than Anne Marlowe has! Does the fact that she has not published in academic, peer-reviewed journals make her less of a "specialist"?

At the same time, I found Marlowe's work frustrating - just anther example of a frustrated neo-con flailing out upon discovery that the "golden BB" of the HTS wasn't so. I can certainly understand why this happened; the marketing of the HTS as a "system" (i.e. in technological terms) would encourage surface thinkers to equate it with AI Expert Systems, but it is disappointing. All in all, I think that Marlowe's article exemplified just why Anthropologists should be more active in the real world - as a counter to the shallow logorhea that passes for "thought" in some circles if nothing else :cool:.

Humans do organize themselves in systems: systems of meaning, systems of kinship, systems of production / consumption / distribution, etc. These systems are, for the most part, homeostatic and subject to chaotic fluctuations (refs available on request :D). My perception of what the HTTs are trying to do is to a) figure out what the specific local systems are, b) identify their isomorphic vectors (feedback loops pulling them in certain directions towards catastrophe points), and c) offer suggests on how to steer local systems back towards a homeostatic point that can be called "peace". If Marlowe can't understand this, and it is obvious to me that she doesn't, then she should either a) learn about it or b) keep her mouth shut.

[selil]

Humans do organize themselves in systems: systems of meaning, systems of kinship, systems of production / consumption / distribution, etc. These systems are, for the most part, homeostatic and subject to chaotic fluctuations (refs available on request :D).

Common systems analyst joke. "The system ends/fails at the squishy keyboard to chair interface".

[marct]

Common systems analyst joke. "The system ends/fails at the squishy keyboard to chair interface".

I'd respond with the classic "how do you tell a real Post Modernist from a Post Modernist manque, but it would be pulled :D.

For another look at the Marlowe piece, see here (http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/11/18/is-the-human-terrain-system-worth-its-spit/).

[wm]

Good point. At the same time, one has to wonder what the CA people think about the HTTs? Since they operate with an overlap, I suspect that there is some organizational friction involved.
Thanks Marc. Since Marlowe spent spent time within the CA world first, your point might well be a second reason for her less than kind words about the HTT. I suspect the traditional CA and PSYOPS organizations are feeling some turf challenges from the HTT.
My perception of what the HTTs are trying to do is to a) figure out what the specific local systems are, b) identify their isomorphic vectors (feedback loops pulling them in certain directions towards catastrophe points), and c) offer suggests on how to steer local systems back towards a homeostatic point that can be called "peace".

In my view, the HTT is an entity very much like the engineer topographic/terrain team that used to support me --its mission was to provide terrain analysis support as part of the intel prep of the battlefield (IPB) process. We had a an acronym for the militarily significant aspects of (geographic) terrain--OCOKA--Observation and fields of fire, Cover and concealment, Obstacles, Key terrain, Avenues of approach. (I guess the acronym has been slightly realigned based on posts I've seen from RTK.)

I see your list above as a first cut at trying to list out the militarily significant aspects of human terrain. I think we might view the HTT work as identifying another OCOKA--Organizational structures, Common traditions and language, Other ethnic considerations (religion e.g.), Key actors, Affiliations (alliances, family and tribe/clan structures for example). I admit this is a very rough first cut at something that is much more detailed. I hope the doctrine developers are expending a lot of effort in developing and vetting such a list. Without such, I think each HTTs will do a lot of wheel spinning as it truies to figure out exactly what it is up to in its deployed location

[Stan]

Thanks, Marc !
Fantastic reading material ;)

I'd respond with the classic "how do you tell a real Post Modernist from a Post Modernist manque, but it would be pulled :D.

For another look at the Marlowe piece, see here (http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/11/18/is-the-human-terrain-system-worth-its-spit/).

Going toe-to-toe with an academic on sources, especially as a lay freelancer with, frankly, sketchy or no credentials at all, does take balls—I will give Ms. Marlowe that much. Afterall, she is “as neocon as they come”—surely that gives her some cachet, somewhere.

Ouch !

[Tom Odom]

Thanks Marc. Since Marlowe spent spent time within the CA world first, your point might well be a second reason for her less than kind words about the HTT. I suspect the traditional CA and PSYOPS organizations are feeling some turf challenges from the HTT.

I believe you are very correct. CA's mission is civil military operations and yes that clearly implies working with locals. It does not, however, make them regional specialists in any sense of the words. That said, CA as an institution tends to take on the cultural specialist mantle when it suits CA to do so. That tendency gets them into trouble in the field and in the rear. HTTs are most definitely a challenge to that inclination.

best

Tom

[wm]

Article from DoDhere (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=48349) about FAOs and AFRICOM support, FYI.

[Stan]

A quick and interesting update from Wired's Blog Network (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/12/exploring-baghd.html). Some good links and a little history as well.

This is the first official dispatch I've seen out of Iraq on the Human Terrain program -- the Army's controversial effort to embed social scientists in combat units. It's unusually informative, for a military public affairs release. And it sheds light on how American armed forces are slowly learning to tap Iraq's social networks, with some seemingly positive results. Here's a snippet:

Even though Operation Iraqi Freedom is in its fifth year, Villacres said many in the U.S. military still fail to appreciate the differences between Arab and Western culture.

“We try to find the assumptions and motivations behind what people do,” Matsuda said.

[Surferbeetle]

I would like to run through some quick data points that I am aware of: FEST Teams ( http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/cepa/pubs/jan04/story12.htm http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3723/is_200502/ai_n9521476 ), RTI Teams (http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr185.pdf ), FBI Teams (http://www.fbi.gov/page2/june07/iraq062907.htm ), PMC Teams (http://www.blackwaterusa.com/ ), DOS PRT’s (http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume5/september_2007/9_07_2.html ) and HTT’s (http://iraqht.blogspot.com/ )

Each of these teams in addition to bringing desperately needed specialized knowledge to the battlefield are also evidence that the actual execution of the oft spoken DIME concept is moving forward…..however haphazard the execution has been.

As a CA Bubba I say “GO TEAM GO!” We sure as hell need all the help we can get, and I am glad to see that people are starting to recognize the need for highly trained folks to help fight the 'graduate level of war'.

Steve

[Mike Innes]

There I was about to start querying SWC on the HTT issue, when I stumbled across this thread. It looks like it's been kicking since October of last year, and has maybe died off in the last few weeks. Not necessarily looking to resurrect it, except to state that I'm researching HTTs in general, and will eventually be looking to mine this thread for all its worth.

As a fair exchange, I offer the following: http://www.terraplexic.org/human-terrain-teams-readings/. It's essentially a bibliography of readings and resources either directly pertaining to HTTs or informing the issue. I don't believe a similar resource exists anywhere else. The media section is far from complete - I do have a day job I have to go to sometimes - but the peer-reviewed/formally published literature section is fairly comprehensive.

[marct]

Hi Mike,

There I was about to start querying SWC on the HTT issue, when I stumbled across this thread. It looks like it's been kicking since October of last year, and has maybe died off in the last few weeks. Not necessarily looking to resurrect it, except to state that I'm researching HTTs in general, and will eventually be looking to mine this thread for all its worth.

Sounds like a plan. I'll be interetsed in seeing your research, since I am very interested in the HTTs.

As a fair exchange, I offer the following: http://www.terraplexic.org/human-terrain-teams-readings/. It's essentially a bibliography of readings and resources either directly pertaining to HTTs or informing the issue. I don't believe a similar resource exists anywhere else. The media section is far from complete - I do have a day job I have to go to sometimes - but the peer-reviewed/formally published literature section is fairly comprehensive.

Excellent! Thanks for posting it.

Marc

[Mike Innes]

Hi Mike,

Sounds like a plan. I'll be interetsed in seeing your research, since I am very interested in the HTTs.

Marc

Groovy, we can share.

I'm just getting started with it, but essentially it'll be one thread of three woven through the book I'm working on (under contract with Hurst & Co Publishers), the other two "terrains" being material/physical and cognitive (broadly understood). Another way of looking at it is in terms of the "cultural turn", "geo" turn, etc., in the way researchers, investigators and military planners navigate the shoals of extremism and political violence.

I've been beating the "terrain complexity" mantra in a couple other threads, which is an outgrowth of research and writing I've been doing on sanctuaries. Basically, so the logic goes, one can't look at "sanctuary" without looking at the system/context/environment from which it sets itself apart (in turn based on the notion that sanctuary is as much process/condition as it is place/space, all of which are metaphors for exemption/exception/intermediacy).

[Rex Brynen]

I've been beating the "terrain complexity" mantra in a couple other threads, which is an outgrowth of research and writing I've been doing on sanctuaries. Basically, so the logic goes, one can't look at "sanctuary" without looking at the system/context/environment from which it sets itself apart (in turn based on the notion that sanctuary is as much process/condition as it is place/space, all of which are metaphors for exemption/exception/intermediacy).

Indeed. Moreover, the socio-political processes that provide "sanctuary" to insurgent groups are not only paramilitary enablers (that is, creating sheltered physical space within which military preparations can be made), but those processes themselves may be linked to insurgent interests that are primarily non-military in nature (for example, growing economic interests, or a political space within which insurgent decision-making can occur relatively free from external pressures and constraints).

Marie-Joelle Zahar (Université de Montreal) has done interesting (and largely unpublished) work on the Lebanese Forces and Serb militias which points to the growing role that institutional and economic interests can play in efforts to preserve militia cantons. You might also want to take a peek at my own work on the PLO's management of insurgent-sanctuary relations in Lebanon in the 1970s and 1980s.

[Mike Innes]

Marie-Joelle Zahar (Université de Montreal) has done interesting (and largely unpublished) work on the Lebanese Forces and Serb militias which points to the growing role that institutional and economic interests can play in efforts to preserve militia cantons. You might also want to take a peek at my own work on the PLO's management of insurgent-sanctuary relations in Lebanon in the 1970s and 1980s.

Hi Rex

Right on. Zahar's works sounds like a very close match to what Peter Andreas at the Watson Institute/Brown has been working on wrt to clandestine political economies (BiH), the criminalizing consequences of sanctions, embargo busting (Serbia), etc. He's done quite a bit of work on it, outgrowths of the greed and grievance school.

Wrt yours: Sanctuary and Survival! I know it well and have become intimate with it over the years. I've been trying to find a hardcopy that I can call my own, but no luck so far.

[marct]

FYI

Military spies invade anthropology conferences?

The U.S. military is not only interested in employing anthropologists. Now, they have started attending anthropology conferences. Anthropologist Caroline Osella from the University in London and one of the editors of Social Mobility In Kerala, is worried.

Much more here (http://www.antropologi.info/blog/anthropology/anthropology.php?title=military_spies_invade_anthr opology_confe&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1)

See also

Final report launched: AAA no longer opposes collaboration with CIA and the military (http://www.antropologi.info/blog/anthropology/anthropology.php?p=2937&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1)

ASA Globalog category n Counterinsurgency (http://blog.theasa.org/?cat=37)

Marc

[Mike Innes]

Activism is activism, no? If I'm a qualified anthropologist and professional academic committed to objective scholarship, then I shouldn't allow my services or knowledge to be directly deployed through me in a military environment... but I can engage in protest politics at will? My unconsidered, knee-jerk thought is that a lot of this is nothing more than left/right BS, not justifiable concern with ethical and professional standards.

[Beelzebubalicious]

Wait, isn't this big news?

Final report launched: AAA no longer opposes collaboration with CIA and the military

What happened? I suspect that the Anthropology Establishment realized that the military can be a source of employment. I mean, practically, there aren't a whole lot of savages left...the new frontier of savageness is the military! Okay, I'm being tounge and cheek here, but what was the turning point?

[marct]

Wait, isn't this big news?



What happened? I suspect that the Anthropology Establishment realized that the military can be a source of employment. I mean, practically, there aren't a whole lot of savages left...the new frontier of savageness is the military! Okay, I'm being tounge and cheek here, but what was the turning point?

Yes and no - in general, it isn't opposed, but I have yet to find a single specific where it is encouraged :wry:. BTW, the HTS is now verbotten.
In the context of a war that is widely recognized as a denial of human rights and based on faulty intelligence and undemocratic principles, the Executive Board sees the HTS project as a problematic application of anthropological expertise, most specifically on ethical grounds. We have grave concerns about the involvement of anthropological knowledge and skill in the HTS project. The Executive Board views the HTS project as an unacceptable application of anthropological expertise.

The Executive Board affirms that anthropology can and in fact is obliged to help improve U.S. government policies through the widest possible circulation of anthropological understanding in the public sphere, so as to contribute to a transparent and informed development and implementation of U.S. policy by robustly democratic processes of fact-finding, debate, dialogue, and deliberation. It is in this way, the Executive Board affirms, that anthropology can legitimately and effectively help guide U.S. policy to serve the humane causes of global peace and social justice.

More here... (http://www.aaanet.org/issues/policy-advocacy/Statement-on-HTS.cfm)

[Mike Innes]

Is that this is mostly left/right BS....

In all seriousness - well, not seriousness, since I was serious before, just a bit more measured now - I can understand the concerns in principle, but it strikes me as egregiously short sighted and wrong-headed. It also sets an interesting precedent.

Questions:

How many PhDs are there in government/service?

What's the breakdown by discipline (ie. how many historians, political scientists, sociologists)?

How many professional academics are also military reservists?

How many of those belong to professional or discipline-specific associations?

How have other professional or discipline-specific associations addressed or dealt with this, if it all?

What's the view/position from across the academy? (I include non-social science disciplines here as well - like mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, engineering, etc.)

What's their view of the AAA's report/position?

How have other disciplines dealt with problems/issues/subjects related to the war? (I'm thinking of, for example, how legal scholars have tangled directly with some very thorny issues).

If one were to survey all of the above on other issues, eg. political belief or patterns of voting behaviour, what would we find in terms of distribution across the disciplines?

Does it matter? In purely academic terms, I'm curious.

Again, I'm looking forward to writing up the HTS study. Someone is sure to be shocked to find that abstractions and ethical concerns of people sitting in offices will only be one part of the story.

[marct]

Gottta say, Mike, they are interesting questions. I don't know if we will ever get the answers to hem, though...

Marc

[Mike Innes]

Gottta say, Mike, they are interesting questions. I don't know if we will ever get the answers to hem, though...

Marc

I know. Sigh...

[selil]

I've got answers but my daddy always said i shouldn't curse to express myself. Oh, and now 4 weeks into my Sociology doctorate classes I can say social sciences suck. I'll take engineering any day of the week. A light switch is on or off. It does not have transcedental states of understanding or statistical significance averaging out to maybe.

[Ron Humphrey]

I've got answers but my daddy always said i shouldn't curse to express myself. Oh, and now 4 weeks into my Sociology doctorate classes I can say social sciences suck. I'll take engineering any day of the week. A light switch is on or off. It does not have transcedental states of understanding or statistical significance averaging out to maybe.

considering all the thesaurantenical fits you've given to others trying to follow some of your posts :D

Yes I made up a word but this is American English and I take pride in following with the great tradition of continually expanding it in an effort to make learning it harder for those from other countries ;)

[Ron Humphrey]

I would guess they will remain somewhat of a fence setter on this until there is either a full success to take credit for or a failure to use as an excuse for future refusal to participate.

[Mike Innes]

I've got answers but my daddy always said i shouldn't curse to express myself. Oh, and now 4 weeks into my Sociology doctorate classes I can say social sciences suck. I'll take engineering any day of the week. A light switch is on or off. It does not have transcedental states of understanding or statistical significance averaging out to maybe.

This is actually doable, give or take about 5-10 years of research. It'll probably take someone like Peter Novick do to it right, but it's definitely doable. The data is out there... most associations, or any kind of membership, request details like employment sector. PhD students are forever running around conducting interviews and getting large numbers of people to fill in surveys/questionnaires...

As for the knowledge of social scientists vs. the know-how of engineers - in this forum, I will refrain from passing negatives on my colleagues who had the misfortune of choosing to study the latter. Good keggers, though - so I hear... :wry:

[marct]

I've got answers but my daddy always said i shouldn't curse to express myself. Oh, and now 4 weeks into my Sociology doctorate classes I can say social sciences suck. I'll take engineering any day of the week. A light switch is on or off. It does not have transcedental states of understanding or statistical significance averaging out to maybe.

So I guess this isn't the time to talk about quantum potentiality or thermal switches :D.

On a (slightly) more serious note, it's not surprising that social science is still in the "schools" phase. Engineering would be there as well if it purposefully excluded large amounts of data, which is what the social sciences tend to do (cf The Adapted Mind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adapted_Mind), by Barkow, Cosmides and Tooby, 1992 and Sometimes the Bus does Wait (http://myweb.dal.ca/barkow/MissingIntro.htm) - the introduction to Missing the Revolution (http://books.google.ca/books?id=aHftFG0vdU0C&dq=%22missing+the+revolution%22+barkow&pg=PP1&ots=XdI1MVg0Bh&sig=-Vg44MvAfrZamc9zh9nNiWoGjv4&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enCA228CA230&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=%22missing+the+revolution%22+barkow&spell=1&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail) by Barkow, 2006).

Of course, if you start quoting Jerry's stuff in your Soc classes, they will probably role their eyes ..... :rolleyes:.

As for the knowledge of social scientists vs. the know-how of engineers - in this forum, I will refrain from passing negatives on my colleagues who had the misfortune of choosing to study the latter. Good keggers, though - so I hear... :wry:

Having done a fairly intensive field study on that question, I'd have to say that engineers are better keggers ;).

Marc

[Hacksaw]

Given that I am not the brightest bulb on the tree, I will refrain from commenting on all previous discussion regarding whether it is ethical for anthroplogists to throw their lot in with the military....

However, I do think it is ironic that for all the hand wringing and statements of the AAA, that neither has had an impact on the fielding of HTS teams. In fact, if my sources are corrent (and they are very good sources), they have more supply than they can effectively train. It seems young anthropologists are more interesting in applying and learning their craft, then they are concerned about the hystrionics of College professors who have been cemented in their instutions for decades. Viva the Vibe Generation

Live well and row

[Beelzebubalicious]

This whole saga gets weirder and weirder....A former HTS staff member speaks at a AAA conference supporting the need for social science in the military, the mood turns ugly and she ends up crying (based on reports below). These Academic Anthropologists are tough. I mean, she basically got fired from the HTS and went to the AAA to tell them that the program wasn't working and they jeered her anyway. Don't need to go to Iraq to get attacked...

Academics Turn On "Human Terrain" Whistleblower
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/12/the-fight-betwe.html

Questions, Anger and Dissent on Ethics Study
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/11/30/anthro

Former Human Terrain System Participant Describes Program in Disarray [on Zenia Helbig]
by David Glenn
The Chronicle of Higher Education
December 5, 2007
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/4586

[Hacksaw]

B.

Thanks for the post, its always great to be pointed to "good" content as opposed to swimming in the www ocean without a lifepreserver. What does AAA stand for? Arrogant A$$h0/es Anonymous. What a bunch of self-important/self-marginalizing miscreants. :mad:I wasn't sure if I should laugh or cry, but I have to admit it reminded me back to fonder days of beer bongs. tailgates and skipping boring lecture hall classes.:D

[Beelzebubalicious]

It's worth quoting directly from the insidehighered article regarding the alleged "crying" incident. Kudos to Gusterson, one of the founders of the Network of Concerned Anthropologists, who had the guts to stand up and slap down these idiots. In general and as usual, there a fewer number of idiots, but it's how the saner ones react that shows something.

At one point Helbig said that she couldn’t disengage from the military role in Iraq because it includes her fiancé, and she noted that if someone in the military refuses to deploy as ordered, that person would go to jail. At that point, a number of people in the audience shouted that her fiancé should have resisted nonetheless, and at that point, she started to wipe tears from her eyes and face.

Gusterson, the George Mason professor, urged the audience to show Helbig some respect, and said that she “showed courage” in expressing her views before an audience she knew didn’t share her opinions. Gusterson’s comments received applause as well and several of those who subsequently criticized Helbig’s views made a point of praising her for attending the meeting.


http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/11/30/anthro

[SWCAdmin]

It's worth quoting directly from the insidehighered article regarding the alleged "crying" incident. Kudos to Gusterson, one of the founders of the Network of Concerned Anthropologists, who had the guts to stand up and slap down these idiots. In general and as usual, there a fewer number of idiots, but it's how the saner ones react that shows something.

Well noted. Good on him.

[Steve Blair]

Just goes to show the total ambiguity of that vocal minority. They'll encourage someone to break the law to support their point of view, but damn someone to hell for disagreeing with them. It's a shame we don't have more sane ones standing up and telling them to shut the hell up.

[120mm]

I've got answers but my daddy always said i shouldn't curse to express myself. Oh, and now 4 weeks into my Sociology doctorate classes I can say social sciences suck. I'll take engineering any day of the week. A light switch is on or off. It does not have transcedental states of understanding or statistical significance averaging out to maybe.

Well, then, it would probably frustrate you to no end to discover that a light bulb has at least 3 positions. "On", "Off" or "Null State". And that's before you start discussing existential questions about the bulb, and whether it is a particle or a wave.

Sorry. I couldn't resist the temptation....

[selil]

Well, then, it would probably frustrate you to no end to discover that a light bulb has at least 3 positions. "On", "Off" or "Null State". And that's before you start discussing existential questions about the bulb, and whether it is a particle or a wave.

Sorry. I couldn't resist the temptation....

In one of my early graduate classes the professor was trying to make a point about engineering methods and perspective leading to design failures. He said that we see the light on or off, but the light bulb has a perspective of does it want to be on or off. One of my fellow students quipped "The light bulb more likely wants people to stop applying 120V AC to it's posterior". You have to have perspective.

[J Wolfsberger]

In one of my early graduate classes the professor was trying to make a point about engineering methods and perspective leading to design failures. He said that we see the light on or off, but the light bulb has a perspective of does it want to be on or off. One of my fellow students quipped "The light bulb more likely wants people to stop applying 120V AC to it's posterior". You have to have perspective.

ROFLMAO!!

Let me guess. I have to ask: was it an anthropologist anthropomorphizing the light bulb?

(Slapout, isn't that illegal in Alabama?)

[Mike Innes]

In one of my early graduate classes the professor was trying to make a point about engineering methods and perspective leading to design failures. He said that we see the light on or off, but the light bulb has a perspective of does it want to be on or off. One of my fellow students quipped "The light bulb more likely wants people to stop applying 120V AC to it's posterior". You have to have perspective.

Or, as German post-structural historian Reinhart Kosseleck put it, asymmetric counterconcepts are generated through narrative concept formation that's contingent on hegemonic perception and counter-perception.

Or, light bulbs have feelings too.

[Ron Humphrey]

Or, as German post-structural historian Reinhart Kosseleck put it, asymmetric counterconcepts are generated through narrative concept formation that's contingent on hegemonic perception and counter-perception.

Or, light bulbs have feelings too.

But they do seem quite human in that they have a tolerance up to a certain point after which they do one of two things

1- Quit

2-Blow

:eek:

[marct]

The entire February issue of Anthropology Today (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/toc/anth/24/v1) is on "the War on Terror" with lead article by Roberto Gonzales on the HTTs and a response from Montgomery McFate & LtCol Steve Fondacaro. Blackwell (the publisher) has grouped over 30+ articles from previous issues there as well.

[Mike Innes]

Excellent! Thanks for posting.

[Mike Innes]

http://www.sciasolutions.com/index.htm

[marct]

http://www.sciasolutions.com/index.htm

I'm getting that queasy feeling again :eek:!

[Tom Odom]

I'm getting that queasy feeling again :eek:!

The company is led by Swen Johnson, a former U.S. Army counterintelligence special agent

Hmmm a CI type as a cultural expert? Well alrighty then...:cool:

[marct]

posting by Oneman at Savage Minds

Anthropology and Global Counter-Insurgency Conference in Chicago, April 25-27

I’ve been invited to speak at a conference hosted by the University of Chicago later this month on the topic of “Anthropology and Global Counter-Insurgency”. Other speakers will include David Price and Hugh Gusterson, who are doing yeoman’s work on the issue. Despite the fact that my introduction to Anthropology at the Dawn of the Cold War discusses issues related to counter-insurgency at some length, it is because of my work here at Savage Minds that I’ve been invited to speak. Take that, traditional publishing models!

More... (http://savageminds.org/2008/04/11/anthropology-and-global-counter-insurgency-conference-in-chicago-april-25-27/#more-1196)

[selil]

I wonder if they'd allow a walk in.

[marct]

I wonder if they'd allow a walk in.

Probably. I'd be surprised if they didn't. You could always contact the U of C Anthropology department and ask :).

[Jedburgh]

Newsweek, 21 Apr 08: A Gun in One Hand, A Pen in the Other (http://www.newsweek.com/id/131752)
.... implementation of the $40 million project, which was handed to British Aerospace Engineering (BAE) without a bidding process, has fallen short, according to more than a dozen people involved in the program and interviewed by NEWSWEEK. Of 19 Human Terrain members operating in five teams in Iraq, fewer than a handful can be described loosely as Middle East experts, and only three speak Arabic. The rest are social scientists or former GIs who, like Griffin, are transposing research skills from their unrelated fields at home.....

....Recruitment appears to have been mishandled from the start, with administrators offering positions to even marginally qualified applicants. The pool of academics across the country who speak Arabic and focus on Iraq, or even more broadly on the Middle East, is not large to begin with. Some of the best potential candidates probably grew leery of the program when the American Anthropological Association declared participants would most likely be violating the ethics tenets of their profession if they signed up (because they would be contributing data that could be used in military operations). Several team members say they were accepted after brief phone interviews and that their language skills were never tested. As a result, instead of top regional experts, the anthropologists sent to Iraq include a Latin America specialist and an authority on Native Americans. One is writing his Ph.D. dissertation on America's goth, punk and rave subcultures.....

....Tompkins, who is 29 and working on a doctorate in political science, says that for every success in Iraq, he has suffered multiple frustrations and failures. And he doesn't believe his team members were uniquely qualified to provide the input they did. Tompkins says many of the officers and grunts he worked with had more-relevant knowledge and experience than the anthropologists, having served in Iraq twice or three times before. "These are dedicated individuals who are often intimately familiar with many of the nuances of the society and culture they are trying to engage with,"....

...But Fondacaro, whose program recently received an additional $120 million in funding, does not necessarily believe it was wrong to send over anthropologists with no background in the region. "Research methodologies are universal," he says. Interpreters help fill in the gaps. That he clings to this concept raises concern among people who want the program to succeed, including Thomas Johnson, an Afghan expert at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif. Johnson served in Afghanistan on a pilot Human Terrain team last year. A Pashto speaker, he spent much of his time there interviewing Afghans in their homes. "If you don't have a good knowledge of the actual country and language, all the methodology can go for naught," he says.....

[marct]

From what I understand, recruitment has been a problem - especially amongst Anthropologists. The idea that "research methodologies are universal" is one of those things that is a true statement that is, in this instance, irrelevant. I could as easily say that "precision guided ordinance kills insurgents", and that would be "true", but inapplicable in a discussion on the best way to separate insurgents out from the general population.

One of the concerns I have had with the HTTs, as a concept and in what I have heard from the field, is that there appears to be a real disconnect in their roles (note the plural, it's important). First, I think I have a feel for how difficult it is to "translate" between Anthrospeak and Militarese - conceptually, the two are very different "languages". Second, there is, I believe, a misunderstanding of what the relative roles are of a social scientist on the HTTs. Are they there to analyze social data? Collect it? Interpret it? Translate it to the military?

The HTS is quite a new system and the bugs still need to be worked out of it. On the whole, I stil think it is valuable - more valuable now that more of the military have experience with other cultures :D.

[Stan]

The article's authors spend an exorbitant amount of time pondering over language skills. I've known NSA and Agency folks with 10 times my language abilities, yet lacked the ability to negotiate a deal in an African Flea Market... LMDAO.

Far too many complex and unexpected issues resulting from lack of cultural knowledge to hinge the entire outcome on language abilities alone, and certainly not enough time to accurately gauge an outcome to the program anywhere on creation.

Now we go and judge one of the only two "language qualified" candidates based on a beer night out with a bunch of soldiers, who later ends ups engaged to a classmate. Huh ??? Pathetic !

[Ken White]

Thanks for saying what I was thinking about that sadly lacking article... :D

[selil]

In a book I recently read the author said that too many people equate language skills to cultural and ethnic understanding. To do so was the same as saying if you know English you know engineering. I think to much is made of language skills and not enough of thinking skills.

[Ron Humphrey]

The article's authors spend an exorbitant amount of time pondering over language skills. I've known NSA and Agency folks with 10 times my language abilities, yet lacked the ability to negotiate a deal in an African Flea Market... LMDAO.

Far too many complex and unexpected issues resulting from lack of cultural knowledge to hinge the entire outcome on language abilities alone, and certainly not enough time to accurately gauge an outcome to the program anywhere on creation.

Now we go and judge one of the only two "language qualified" candidates based on a beer night out with a bunch of soldiers, who later ends ups engaged to a classmate. Huh ??? Pathetic !

When I was stationed in Korea I would quite often find that I was more able to work with the ROK and Katusa's then many of the linguists who were far more linguistically capable than I. For the most part it generally came down to the fact that I got along better with them then those other guys and thus they were more willing to excuse my failings on a linguistic front and actually spent a lot of time trying to help me become more proficient.

More often than not most of the problems I saw occur with many of the linguist was that because they understood what the Korean soldiers said, they assumed this actually equated to understanding what they meant. Which quite often would turn out to not be the case.

[Ken White]

...More often than not most of the problems I saw occur with many of the linguist was that because they understood what the Korean soldiers said, they assumed this actually equated to understanding what they meant. Which quite often would turn out to not be the case.More often than not, I'd bet... ;)

Waa an de Oh.

[Jedburgh]

Discussion thread (https://forums.bcks.army.mil/secure/CommunityBrowser.aspx?id=542144) on BCKS in answer to this question:

Are Transition Teams in theater sharing information with Human Terrain Teams? Are the HTTs providing useful information back?

AKO Log-In required.

[Surferbeetle]

All,

The recent EBO thread got me started on considering HTT's and their effectiveness. On the one hand I am glad to see that we recognize the importance of this type of work and are able to recruit dedicated professionals to help us integrate this important part of the battle into our operations. On the other hand, taking a civil affairs-centric view, I see it as contracting out civil affairs functions which speaks to an inability by 'in-house staff' to deliver a product that our 'customer' needs. Once upon a time we used to commission people with these skills...

Surfing through this mornings news offering on SWJ (nice reorg with the headers by the way) led me to this article's (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/04/gates-human-ter.html) discussion of Newsweek's recent article (http://www.newsweek.com/id/131752) on HTT's and the resulting rebuttals concerning fact checking issues. The same article led to some additional links on HTT's and the methods used to address the many dimensions that need to be considered in a counterinsurgency, and of course strategic formulations of policy:):

Mr. Gates provides a thoughtful analysis, as usual, in this speech (http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=1228) about a partnership between academia and the USG called the Minerva Consortia.

Finally, there is the New Disciplines Project. Earlier I mentioned game theory and Kremlinology, two fields developed during the Cold War. In the last few years, we have learned that the challenges facing the world require a much broader conception and application of national power than just military prowess. The government and the Department of Defense need to engage additional intellectual disciplines – such as history, anthropology, sociology, and evolutionary psychology.
These are just a few of the ideas for the Minerva Consortia, and I imagine that there are many more that we would be willing to entertain. The key as we move forward is to be candid with one another. The relationship between DOD and the social sciences – humanities in particular – for decades has covered the spectrum from cooperative to hostile. Bob and I have already discussed some of the thornier issues, such as how to deal with sensitivities like those surrounding the military’s relationship with anthropologists in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Let me be clear that the key principle of all components of the Minerva Consortia will be complete openness and rigid adherence to academic freedom and integrity. There will be no room for “sensitive but unclassified,” or other such restrictions in this project. We are interested in furthering our knowledge of these issues and in soliciting diverse points of view – regardless of whether those views are critical of the Department’s efforts. Too many mistakes have been made over the years because our government and military did not understand – or even seek to understand – the countries or cultures we were dealing with.
As Schlesinger said, we must again embrace eggheads and ideas – and the Minerva Consortia can move us in that direction. (The bold font is mine)

This article (http://usacac.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/MarApr08/Smith_AnbarEngMarApr08.pdf) has some interesting lessons learned about 'on the ground integration' of cultural knowledge into operations.

[Jedburgh]

Related discussion and links in this thread (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=4093).

[marct]

I got an interesting letter this morning over a list I'm on from the Sheiks of the al-Tajy North Region endorsing the actions of the HTT in their area.

I just got permission to post the letter, so here it is. BTW, the names of HTT members have been blanked out and the English is somewhat poor.

Hang on...

Hah, got it! Here's the letter (http://smallwarsjournal.com/docs/user/shiekendorsement.pdf).

[marct]

The conference website is now up and available at http://anthroandwar.uchicago.edu/. (http://anthroandwar.uchicago.edu/)

[Stan]

The same week that Newsweek (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/04/gates-human-ter.html) ran a harsh critique of the Pentagon's nascent efforts to send social scientists to work with the military in Iraq and Afghanistan, Defense Secretary Gates addressed the often touchy issue of cooperation between the Pentagon and academia, saying that human terrain teams' work "is still in its infancy and has attendant growing pains."

Also at the link are fantastic comments by Montgomery McFate (Well Done !)

FACTUAL ERRORS:

1) "the idea is to recruit academics whose area expertise and language skills" - Incorrect. In fact, the goal of HTS is to recruit social scientists with the appropriate research skills and methodological approaches. There are very, very few social scientists in the US who have the requisite knowledge of Iraq or Afghanistan, since these countries have been closed to research for many decades. However, if the social scientist on a team is not an Arabic speaker, other members of the team possess the requisite area expertise and language skills.


Much more at the links...

[marct]

There's also an update at Wired on this.

Human Terrain's 'Catch-22' (Updated)
By Sharon Weinberger EmailApril 17, 2008 | 6:00:00 PMCategories: Human Terrain

Human_terrain The debate over the Pentagon's efforts to work with social scientists continues. Yesterday, we laid out the response of Defense Department officials supporting the program, including comments from Defense Secretary Gates. Today, it's worth highlighting one of the main issues raised by the critics, particularly two former members of a Human Terrain Team, Zenia Helbig and Matthew Tompkins.

More... (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/04/the-debate-over.html)

[Mike Innes]

You might want to check out Brian Glyn Williams' post at the Complex Terrain Lab (http://www.terraplexic.org/journal/author/brianglynwilliams). He's been directly involved with the HTT program. As an historian AND one who's subject matter expertise is actually relevant to the work, he offers some interesting observations.

[marct]

You might want to check out Brian Glyn Williams' post at the Complex Terrain Lab (http://www.terraplexic.org/journal/author/brianglynwilliams). He's been directly involved with the HTT program. As an historian AND one who's subject matter expertise is actually relevant to the work, he offers some interesting observations.

I'll second that :D. Interesting page all told, although I can hardly read the publications age because the type is so small in my browser (Firefox, 2.0.0.14).

[Mike Innes]

Roger that - thanks for the input. Still ironing out wrinkles and smoothing rough patches on the site.

[marct]

Roger that - thanks for the input. Still ironing out wrinkles and smoothing rough patches on the site.

No worries :D. I suspect it's a glitch in you css - probably an em set a <.71 (that's a common problem with Firefox).

[Mike Innes]

Fixed

[Stan]

Hey Mike,

You might want to check out Brian Glyn Williams' post at the Complex Terrain Lab (http://www.terraplexic.org/journal/author/brianglynwilliams). He's been directly involved with the HTT program. As an historian AND one who's subject matter expertise is actually relevant to the work, he offers some interesting observations.

Great stuff and in layman's terms to boot :) Please pass on my thanks to Brian for a Job Well Done !

Anthropologists who feel that their noble profession is being used for nefarious purposes should see their job as one that can allow 19 year olds from Kansas understand their frightening environment. At the end of the day, anthropologists in Afghanistan are not working on the Manhattan project, they are helping to interpret other worlds to those whose lives literally depends upon such things as knowing a simple Muslim greeting, understanding which hand is unclean, knowing the real distinction between a mosque and a madrassa, and knowing how to deal witih namuz (pride in protecting one’s womenfolk, home place and faith).

Regards, Stan

[Ron Humphrey]

You might want to check out Brian Glyn Williams' post at the Complex Terrain Lab (http://www.terraplexic.org/journal/author/brianglynwilliams). He's been directly involved with the HTT program. As an historian AND one who's subject matter expertise is actually relevant to the work, he offers some interesting observations.

would like to know if he has written in more detail some of his experiences and the way he approaches the relationship between the HTT and their military teammates?

[Mike Innes]

Brian's one of those rare creatures. He's a scholar, tenured, etc. - and also spends extensive time on the ground, so he knows whereof he speaks. He's also got an online portfolio site, at http://www.brianglynwilliams.com/, where you can reference his writings for yourself.

His writing is also genius in that he doesn't just write for the three other scholars in the field who might understand him in those terms. He writes with great great style, and communicates his findings in such an engaging way, that it's always a pleasure to read. The best part is that a lot of is contemporary and experiential - he writes from the ground, and places you in the scene.

[Mike Innes]

Hey Mike,



Great stuff and in layman's terms to boot :) Please pass on my thanks to Brian for a Job Well Done !



Regards, Stan

Cheers :)

[Stan]

There's also an update at Wired on this.

Marc, thanks for the post and link !
I fully enjoy Sharon's articles and her overall style. She draws intriguing and valid questions regarding the HTT program.

However, I didn't get the warm fuzzies with this article's comments by Derek Gregory. It's fairly easy to pick an individual's journal apart and comment on those areas that seem controversial or contradictory, leaving out all the other significant findings. I'd have taken Derek's comments far more seriously if his site wasn't like a gigantic Newsweek and CNN advertisement and his statement about General Petraeus being little more than an iconic figure :wry:

What I wouldn't give to know his language skills :D

Regards, Stan

[marct]

From Savage Minds (http://savageminds.org/2008/04/19/hts-in-newsweek/).

A response to the Newsweek (http://www.newsweek.com/id/131752/page/1) story by Montgomery McFate published, in full at Wired (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/04/gates-human-ter.html).

Having long been an admirer of Newsweek, I found your failure to fact check the story by Dan Ephron & Silvia Springs entitled "A gun in one hand, a pen in the other" (21 April issue) completely shocking. One naturally expects more from Newsweek than such sloppy journalism.The latest version of her responses can be found in the attachment.

[edit] See later post
Marc

[marct]

As always, Savage Minds comes up with some of the most interesting (:rolleyes:) questions...

Montgomery’s Minerva?

Pure speculation. Does Montgomery McFate have the ear of Robert Gates, US Secretary of Defense? I was jumping around some sites related to the HTS discussion when I noticed the following quotes from a summary of a presentation that McFate gave {in May 2007} on ‘The Cultural Knowledge Gap and Its Consequences for National Security.

More... (http://savageminds.org/2008/04/21/montgomerys-minerva/)

Given the comments, I suspect that Mongomery is getting heartily sick and tired of all the fooforah. As Oneman noted in his comment (), "anthropology has managed a lot of amazing things in the last 40 years, without military help" and this is quite true, it has. Of course, getting rid of the four square model that used to dominate the field, making the discipline increasingly irrelevant to lived reality, and driving away potential students are not things I would want to brag about ;).

[marct]

From Philip Carl Salzman on the Middle East Strategy at Harvard blog

Uncle Sam Wants You
From Philip Carl Salzman

“He must be a spy,” said the visiting Baluch, bearded, turbaned, and baggy in long shirt and trousers. My fellow camp mates of the Dadolzai shrugged. They had accepted me and were past wondering exactly how I got there. “Sure,” I replied; “the government”—whether Iranian or American was left unspecified, “they are paying me big bucks to tell them how many rocks”—I point at rocks on the ground—”there are in Baluchistan. And they are very interested in how many of these”—goat turds—”there are in Baluchistan.” Camp mates shrug; visitor is now bored with the subject.

New locale: Rajasthan. The Brahman veterinarian from the Sheep and Wool Service who served as my guide, local expert, and traveling companion, assured me that everyone knew that so-called tourists who went to Jaisalmer, up near the Pakistan border, to ride the camel safaris in the sand dunes were really spies. “Why,” he said, “they went missing for days at a time, and we know what they are spying.” His trump argument: “No well-to-do, educated people would ever do anything so dumb as to want to ride camels in the desert, for fun.”

It is very common for anthropologists, and foreigners in general, to be regarded as spies, agents, dubious, and perhaps dangerous. So the oft-heard plea of researchers—”We can’t ever work for government or people will think all of us all the time are spies and agents”—seems at the very least naive, and, one cannot help thinking, disingenuous.

More... (http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/mesh/2008/04/uncle_sam_wants_you/)

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

Williams' remark "anthropologists in Afghanistan are not working on the Manhattan project" might also have included "nor the Phoenix Program." :D

[marct]

Williams' remark "anthropologists in Afghanistan are not working on the Manhattan project" might also have included "nor the Phoenix Program." :D

LOLOL. I mean, seriously (quoth he with tongue planted firmly in cheek), all reall Anthropologists are already involved with the Post-Colonial version of the Phoenix Program - figuring out who is sympathetic to the military and conducting targeted character assassinations on them :cool:.

I think my favorite line in the entire piece was
It is not that anthropologists believe any more in neutrality, objectivity, or truth. These ideas are largely deceased among social and cultural anthropologists (excepting behavioral/evolutionary ecologists). On the contrary, subjectivity is now explicitly paired with political commitment as the twin pillars of anthropology. As there is no point seeking “truth,” the only purpose of the field is advancing the interests of the subaltern: people of color, women, gays, workers, the third world, and so on. Thus the call from the most famous of contemporary anthropologists, Nancy Scheper-Hughes, for “revolutionary anthropology.” This is a “postcolonial” extension of the Marxism that was so popular in anthropology for the decades prior to the fall of the Soviet Union.

What really gets me about this is that they haven't followed their own logic: since the military is obviously being oppressed by incompetent (and incoherent) politicians, attacked by almost every academic discipline, and the subject of extensive media spin, obviously they need Anthropologists to speak for them :eek::D!

[Rex Brynen]

...one of the advance/ground team for the July 2002 assassination in Gaza of Hamas military commander Salah Shehadeh was allegedly posing as a Canadian sociologist, and Palestinian counterintelligence services had suspicions that one of the advance/ground team for the 1988 Tunis assassination of Fateh military commander Khalil al-Wazir was posing as a Western graduate student. Whether either claim is true I don't know, although the former was substantive enough for Ottawa to pursue the issue with the Israeli government.

As for myself, while doing my own PhD research I was once accused of being an spy while in a safe house full of armed men belonging to one of the designated foreign terrorist organizations. My unfeigned outrage won me laughter, several cups of Turkish coffee, and a very good interview. (My interview subject was later assassinated in 2001.)

As to Phil Salzman's broader point on MESH, he's correct that scholars (and especially anthropologists) are very wary of excessively close connection with the government/military for both ideological and scholarly reasons.

Regarding the latter, I'm struck by the extent to which--despite all the hot debate on HTTs, Project Minerva, and so forth--there has been very little substantive analysis of the pluses and minuses of the relationship, how to address the ethical issues involved, and other practical issues. (SWJ and Savage Minds (http://savageminds.org/) being, in general, relatively rare exceptions to this pattern.)

Instead, much of the commentary and discussion remains far too polemical to be useful.

[Ron Humphrey]

As always, Savage Minds comes up with some of the most interesting (:rolleyes:) questions...



Given the comments, I suspect that Mongomery is getting heartily sick and tired of all the fooforah. As Oneman noted in his comment (), "anthropology has managed a lot of amazing things in the last 40 years, without military help" and this is quite true, it has. Of course, getting rid of the four square model that used to dominate the field, making the discipline increasingly irrelevant to lived reality, and driving away potential students are not things I would want to brag about ;).

I suspect that MR Gates ears have been trained on a lot more than people may realize. From everything I've seen and heard he really believes that listening is the best way to learn whats really going on and I'd bet he probably does exactly that a lot more than most think.

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

"It is not that anthropologists believe any more in neutrality, objectivity, or truth."

Sounds like they're just like journalists! :eek:

[Ken White]

Williams' remark "anthropologists in Afghanistan are not working on the Manhattan project" might also have included "nor the Phoenix Program." :DPhoenix worked. It wasn't very nice but then war isn't nice.

The 'principles' of 'fighting cleanly' and minimal force have always intrigued me. Both those efforts can only prolong a war and thus produce more widespread suffering. Beautiful example of cutting off one's nose...

[Mike Innes]

Regarding the latter, I'm struck by the extent to which--despite all the hot debate on HTTs, Project Minerva, and so forth--there has been very little substantive analysis of the pluses and minuses of the relationship, how to address the ethical issues involved, and other practical issues. (SWJ and Savage Minds (http://savageminds.org/) being, in general, relatively rare exceptions to this pattern.)

Instead, much of the commentary and discussion remains far too polemical to be useful.

Hear hear!

[marct]

Hi Rex,

As to Phil Salzman's broader point on MESH, he's correct that scholars (and especially anthropologists) are very wary of excessively close connection with the government/military for both ideological and scholarly reasons.

I would add in "historical" as well and, possibly, metaphysical (I really don't want to get into that one here...).

Regarding the latter, I'm struck by the extent to which--despite all the hot debate on HTTs, Project Minerva, and so forth--there has been very little substantive analysis of the pluses and minuses of the relationship, how to address the ethical issues involved, and other practical issues. (SWJ and Savage Minds (http://savageminds.org/) being, in general, relatively rare exceptions to this pattern.)

Instead, much of the commentary and discussion remains far too polemical to be useful.

On the whole, I agree with you on that. I could point out a few more, Marcus Griffin (http://savageminds.org/2007/08/13/professor-griffin-goes-to-baghdad/) comes to mind but, on the whole, it tends to be here and SM (and a few private lists like MilAnthNet).

I've often suspected that part of the problem is some pretty basic different philosophical assumptions about "reality". In many ways, the position taken by a lot of the extreme anti-military crowd are on the extreme end of social constructivism - "reality is a social construct". This, at least in many of the forms it shows up in, is an extreme version of "nurture" (vs. Nature) or free-will vs. predestination and one that disregards many of the scientific discoveries of the past 20 years in the area of neuro-cognition, etc.

In this paradigm, conflict cannot be "natural" since "nature" is an illusion that is used as a rhetorical device to explain the complexities of social manipulation. Since conflict arises from the social, then we must look to the social for its causes and this can only be because of the US (okay, I skipped out about 10 intermediate levels in the causal chain, but, hey, this isn't a dissertation!).

I noted that Phil specifically excepted the behavioural and evolutionary crowd in Anthropology which, on the whole, doesn't surprise me at all since these are some of the few people who still look at "nature" (read biology and neuro-biology).

As an observation, it gets really hard to argue ethics when you are coming from totally contradictory metaphysical positions about the nature of reality!

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

Phoenix worked. It wasn't very nice but then war isn't nice.

It not only worked it is probably one of the more effective tactics in prosecuting COIN, when used judiciously. The anthro's shudder to think their research will be used in such a way without realizing that in actuality their help might actually allow us to win without going that far.

Unfortunately there are many who believe that you can fight a war by being nice. Reminds me of Orwell's observation: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

[marct]

It not only worked it is probably one of the more effective tactics in prosecuting COIN, when used judiciously.

I'm not so sure about that, at least as an absolute statement. First off, it "worked" in a particular time and place and, most important, media environment. Second, while it was a tactical success, the war was still lost and I've never really liked "the operation was a success but the patient died" type of argument.

I think the key to using a tactic like Phoenix is inherent in the word "judicial", especially with all of the current concerns over rule of law.

The anthro's shudder to think their research will be used in such a way without realizing that in actuality their help might actually allow us to win without going that far.

Now you're buying into Anthro propaganda :D. It's always nice to know that people think we could win the wars without having to resort to a Phoenix type program if only(!!) we had the help of Anthropologists :D. Reality? Pretty unlikely. I think that Anthropological insights can help make such a program limited in nature but you're still going to have to "neutralize" some people either via imprisonmen or assassination.

Besides anything else, a lot of the anger was over being lied to and feeling "betrayed" by the "misuse" of our research. As an analogue, how would you feel over an SF op to destroy Venezuala's oil production facilities only to discover afterwards that the op was a "favour" to Haliburton executives so they could maximize their profits?

Unfortunately there are many who believe that you can fight a war by being nice. Reminds me of Orwell's observation: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Agreed with that; it's not an illusion I've ever had. And, let me just also note for the record, I have nothing against targeted assassinations either if they can be 99% guaranteed to have a "positive" effect (something I said when I was being interviewed for the AAA ethics committee on working with the military). I have very little time for people who bitch and complain about how everything is the fault of the West while they take advantage of the freedom to actually say that and not get arrested and interned. Bunch of soi disant, self-proclaimed "elites" who have no concept that each right is balanced by a responsibility! These are the same people who will call for blood when their own interests are attacked.

[/rant...]

At the same time, I refuse to do covert research with people that may, later, be used to "neutralize" them (obviously within foreseeable limits :wry:), and I will not betray my informants. That's my personal line in the sand; it doesn't mean that I won't do secondary research that has a direct impact on a war (hey, Ruth Benedict did that!). Nor does it mean that I won't try and do my best to make sure that people going in theatre have the best advice I can give them if they ask for it.

[Ken White]

using half measures in an attempt to reduce the suffering caused almost invariably ends up in prolonging that war (usually immeasurably) and thus inducing even more suffering it seems a short sighted, illogical and even inhumane approach to me.

But I'm just a uneddicated grunt... :D

[Hacksaw]

Marc you hurt my brain, but judging from my picture its a minor achievement :D

[SteveMetz]

I must add that anthropologists may today's masters of 1960s intellectual leftist silliness, but they don't have a monopoly. I was at an AFRICOM conference at the Pentagon Doubletree yesterday listening to a historian basically make the argument that training African militaries is a bad idea since it simply made them more effective at repressing "the people." Give you one guess as to where said historian took his bachelor's degree.

[marct]

I must add that anthropologists may today's masters of 1960s intellectual leftist silliness, but they don't have a monopoly. I was at an AFRICOM conference at the Pentagon Doubletree yesterday listening to a historian basically make the argument that training African militaries is a bad idea since it simply made them more effective at repressing "the people."

Yeah, I've heard that argument as well :rolleyes:. Recently, I've been thinking that if Africom wanted to start off on the right foot, they should do some live fire training in Zimbabwe ;).

[marct]

Marc you hurt my brain, but judging from my picture its a minor achievement :D

Hacksaw, let me introduce you to my old Anthro ethics tutor...

http://arnaud.rousset3.free.fr/images/beer-smiley.gif

[Ken White]

I'm not so sure about that, at least as an absolute statement. First off, it "worked" in a particular time and place and, most important, media environment. Second, while it was a tactical success, the war was still lost and I've never really liked "the operation was a success but the patient died" type of argument.The war was lost because the Army screwed it up for seven years and lost support of the politicians. The fact that the effort got turned around (and Phoenix played a part in that) too late to und the early errors does not negate the value of the program -- sort of the operation was a success but the patient died due to a cancer...I think the key to using a tactic like Phoenix is inherent in the word "judicial", especially with all of the current concerns over rule of law.True. Though I would submit that current concerns may modify upwards or downwards dependent upon many things.Agreed with that; it's not an illusion I've ever had. And, let me just also note for the record, I have nothing against targeted assassinations either if they can be 99% guaranteed to have a "positive" effect (something I said when I was being interviewed for the AAA ethics committee on working with the military). I have very little time for people who bitch and complain about how everything is the fault of the West while they take advantage of the freedom to actually say that and not get arrested and interned. Bunch of soi disant, self-proclaimed "elites" who have no concept that each right is balanced by a responsibility! These are the same people who will call for blood when their own interests are attacked.Heh. Yep...At the same time, I refuse to do covert research with people that may, later, be used to "neutralize" them (obviously within foreseeable limits :wry:), and I will not betray my informants. That's my personal line in the sand; it doesn't mean that I won't do secondary research that has a direct impact on a war (hey, Ruth Benedict did that!). Nor does it mean that I won't try and do my best to make sure that people going in theatre have the best advice I can give them if they ask for it.Sounds totally ethical, moral and logical to me. Good for you!

[Rex Brynen]

I must add that anthropologists may today's masters of 1960s intellectual leftist silliness, but they don't have a monopoly. I was at an AFRICOM conference at the Pentagon Doubletree yesterday listening to a historian basically make the argument that training African militaries is a bad idea since it simply made them more effective at repressing "the people." Give you one guess as to where said historian took his bachelor's degree.

It is not, however, an irrelevant point--I think inadequate attention has been given to how military training, assistance to civilian police institutions, and indeed role-of-law sectoral assistance more broadly can have a range of undesired effects, including reinforcing patron-client structures in the security sector, and strengthening the repressive apparatus of authoritarian regimes.

Obviously, this certainly isn't to say that it shouldn't ever be done. It is to say that it is worth thinking about how it is best done, and how to maximize the positive while minimizing the negatives...

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

how would you feel over an SF op to destroy Venezuala's oil production facilities only to discover afterwards that the op was a "favour" to Haliburton executives so they could maximize their profits?


have you been sneaking down here and looking into our playbook? Who told you about this op? :D

Phoenix was way too late. South Vietnam had pretty much lost the war in '62 thanks to Diem's ruthless policies, capped by Decree 10/59. Then the '63 coup left the country leaderless for too many years, in which time the NLF consolidated its hold. '68 was a heavy blow to the NLF but it had the same affect as the Red River Delta Offensive had on the Viet Minh in '51, it only made them stronger. Had we initiated CORD/Phoenix in '65 we might have come out on top.

But by eliminating leadership judiciously (and permanently) faster than they can be replaced makes many an insurgent take a closer look at the benefits of capitalism. :)

[Mike Innes]

It is not, however, an irrelevant point--I think inadequate attention has been given to how military training, assistance to civilian police institutions, and indeed role-of-law sectoral assistance more broadly can have a range of undesired effects, including reinforcing patron-client structures in the security sector, and strengthening the repressive apparatus of authoritarian regimes.

Obviously, this certainly isn't to say that it shouldn't ever be done. It is to say that it is worth thinking about how it is best done, and how to maximize the positive while minimizing the negatives...

Right. I think one of the most important consequences of some kinds of interventions is precisely the lack of follow-on mentoring needed to ensure new equipment and new skills aren't put to ill use. And that's where things can fall short. State-building is all fine and well, but if said capacity - which for our interests centers on the capacity to justify political borders and a corresponding entitlement to sovereign powers - isn't coupled with some form of longer term external oversight (can it be done non-paternalistically?) that understands local level issues and implementation, then the risk is that the abuses can happen.

[marct]

The war was lost because the Army screwed it up for seven years and lost support of the politicians. The fact that the effort got turned around (and Phoenix played a part in that) too late to und the early errors does not negate the value of the program -- sort of the operation was a success but the patient died due to a cancer

Well, in extreme cases radical surgery works - I've just always been in favour of preventative medicine or early surgery ;).


I think the key to using a tactic like Phoenix is inherent in the word "judicial", especially with all of the current concerns over rule of law....True. Though I would submit that current concerns may modify upwards or downwards dependent upon many things.

Yeah, that is definitely true. The worst part about itis the effect it can have on the people executing it (pun not intended). There's an all too easy slippery slope that can destroy people all too easily. In some ways, I'm a great believer in the potential for "salvation" (yeah, Stan, I know... I'm a romantic). Still and all, some people just need to be involuntarily discarnated and told "get it right next time"!

have you been sneaking down here and looking into our playbook? Who told you about this op? :D

Nah, I just popped over to a friends blog and read it there :eek:.

But by eliminating leadership judiciously (and permanently) faster than they can be replaced makes many an insurgent take a closer look at the benefits of capitalism.

Very true! After all, given the current fad for foreign outsourceing amongst the US government, they could easily find high paying employment in the near future :p. Personally, I have nothing against capitalism, even though we have never seen it in action. I prefer KYFHO (http://crankyinsomniac.blogspot.com/2006/03/kyfho.html)as a guiding philosophy...

[SteveMetz]

It is not, however, an irrelevant point--I think inadequate attention has been given to how military training, assistance to civilian police institutions, and indeed role-of-law sectoral assistance more broadly can have a range of undesired effects, including reinforcing patron-client structures in the security sector, and strengthening the repressive apparatus of authoritarian regimes.

Obviously, this certainly isn't to say that it shouldn't ever be done. It is to say that it is worth thinking about how it is best done, and how to maximize the positive while minimizing the negatives...


The training by the U.S. does as much as possible to reinforce respect for human rights, civilian control of the military etc. No doubt people trained by the U.S. commit abuses. What I was taking issue with was this guy's assumption that ANY military is by definition going to be abusive so, in his warped logic, not training foreign militaries is better. I guess that's why places without a professional military like Somalia, Sierra Leone, and Liberia are such bastions of peace.

My other favorite bit of nonsense at the conference was the argument by a very charming Liberian-American woman that since small arms fuel African conflicts and the U.S. is the world's largest arms producer, the U.S. is to blame for African conflicts. I tried to make the point that only a minuscule percentage of the small arms in Africa come from the U.S. but she was determined not to let facts interfere with a perfectly good ideological point.

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

of anything that starts with "KY" :eek:

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

I agree. That is also a basic tenent of traditional martial arts.

[Tom Odom]

The training by the U.S. does as much as possible to reinforce respect for human rights, civilian control of the military etc. No doubt people trained by the U.S. commit abuses. What I was taking issue with was this guy's assumption that ANY military is by definition going to be abusive so, in his warped logic, not training foreign militaries is better. I guess that's why places without a professional military like Somalia, Sierra Leone, and Liberia are such bastions of peace.

My other favorite bit of nonsense at the conference was the argument by a very charming Liberian-American woman that since small arms fuel African conflicts and the U.S. is the world's largest arms producer, the U.S. is to blame for African conflicts. I tried to make the point that only a minuscule percentage of the small arms in Africa come from the U.S. but she was determined not to let facts interfere with a perfectly good ideological point.

Thank you, Steve!

Please tell State Department that as many in Foggy Bottom operate uinder those exact same assumptions

As for the "trained" military that repressess the population, that always seems to come around to Zaire/Congo as a talking point, to whit that Western training of Zairian/Congolese security forces made them more inclined to suppress the Zairians/Congolese and that absent such training the Zairian/Congolese military would not be so inclined.

The extension of this logic led a senior State department envoy to challenge me to "reform and downsize" the Zairian military so that democracy would flower in the Congo. The funny thing was and still is that the US never emphasized direct combat training or lethal arms in our assistance to the Zairians. That came from the French, the Egyptians, and the Israelis. The primary architects of units targeted toward internal security were the Egyptians and the Israelis and the latter were by far the most blatant in doing so. No doubt that the US paid a key role in setting those things up but the lead agancy in that effort was State.

As for the arms control equates to peace theory, I never saw a machete with a trigger

Tom

[Stan]

As for the arms control equates to peace theory, I never saw a machete with a trigger

Tom

And they want to approve 200K to peacefully engage in anthropology :cool:
Wait for the AAA's response on that one :D

And, as Tom's NCO put it, machetes don't 'click' on empty :wry:

[marct]

The training by the U.S. does as much as possible to reinforce respect for human rights, civilian control of the military etc. No doubt people trained by the U.S. commit abuses. What I was taking issue with was this guy's assumption that ANY military is by definition going to be abusive so, in his warped logic, not training foreign militaries is better. I guess that's why places without a professional military like Somalia, Sierra Leone, and Liberia are such bastions of peace.

You know, Steve, I'd grant you that about US training and I agree that this character's logic is so flawed, he must be a follower of Foucault, but I do want to point out a couple of problems. First, training the military to be more professional (and we'll leave of any combat training for the nonce), does nothing to train the politicians who control them.

In a way, this gets us back into the civ-mil relationship and the entire nature of many f these post-colonial "states" (using the term very loosely).

My other favorite bit of nonsense at the conference was the argument by a very charming Liberian-American woman that since small arms fuel African conflicts and the U.S. is the world's largest arms producer, the U.S. is to blame for African conflicts. I tried to make the point that only a minuscule percentage of the small arms in Africa come from the U.S. but she was determined not to let facts interfere with a perfectly good ideological point.

As for the arms control equates to peace theory, I never saw a machete with a trigger

Agreed on machetes, but here's always this....
http://www.backpackingdave.com/euro0220.JPG

[Ken White]

Well, in extreme cases radical surgery works - I've just always been in favour of preventative medicine or early surgery ;).Me too -- but my wife refuses to get a physical so we can see if there may be any incipient problems...

People are funny about that. Then, too the Medical, military and political fields (among many others) are far from error free in the determination of potential problems.Yeah, that is definitely true. The worst part about itis the effect it can have on the people executing it (pun not intended). There's an all too easy slippery slope that can destroy people all too easily.Which is why I'm a strong believer in psychological testing and personnel selection in most things. Shouldn't be a problem if you get the right sociopaths... :wry:

As an aside, Phoenix was in operation under another name long before the onset of that name and CORDS; it dated back to the earliest days (62 IIRC) and was modeled on a British program from the Malayan Emergency. Some Australian involvement in the set up and training was beneficial. The onset of CORDS saw it ramped up considerably in effort.

[marct]

And they want to approve 200K to peacefully engage in anthropology :cool:
Wait for the AAA's response on that one :D

Drat! I guess that means I won't get that research contract to study the ideological oppression of French baguettes by camembert! Measly 200k! How much fieldwork can you do with that? Especially in Paris :eek::D!

[marct]

People are funny about that. Then, too the Medical, military and political fields (among many others) are far from error free in the determination of potential problems.Which is why I'm a strong believer in psychological testing and personnel selection in most things. Shouldn't be a problem if you get the right sociopaths... :wry:

Too bad we don't have psychological testing for politicians :D.... getting the sociopaths isn't a problem :( (on the right or the left).

As an aside, Phoenix was in operation under another name long before the onset of that name and CORDS; it dated back to the earliest days (62 IIRC) and was modeled on a British program from the Malayan Emergency. Some Australian involvement in the set up and training was beneficial. The onset of CORDS saw it ramped up considerably in effort.

Yeah, I'd read that in John Nagl's book and, also, heard about it from my great uncle (an even earlier version in Sicily in WW II). The basic idea appears workable, but my concern with any program like that is the "false positives". After WW II during the de-Nazification process in Austria, ex-party members lost all social benefits. The problem was that, in order to get them under the Nazi's, you had to be a party member...

That's an operational issue, but there is a deeper philosophical issue which relates to free speech. Any organization that has a monopoly on power has a tendency to use that power to its own benefit (think institutional de Tocqueville). I agree that it is certainly ethical to blow the snot out of someone who is trying to blow the snot out of you, but what if they are just advocating that things should be different without engaging in armed conflict? I can easily see a Phoenix type program being used by repressive regimes to stifle free discussion and freedom of thought and action (BTW, it's one of the reasons why I was opposed to turning over the HTS databases to the host governments).

[SteveMetz]

You know, Steve, I'd grant you that about US training and I agree that this character's logic is so flawed, he must be a follower of Foucault, but I do want to point out a couple of problems. First, training the military to be more professional (and we'll leave of any combat training for the nonce), does nothing to train the politicians who control them.

In a way, this gets us back into the civ-mil relationship and the entire nature of many f these post-colonial "states" (using the term very loosely).

Not exactly true--that's exactly what the regional centers like the Marshall Center and the Africa Center for Strategic Studies do. They realized that for civilian control of the military to work, you have to have civilians who understand defense issues. So they include elected officials, civil servants, and representatives of civil society in their programs.

[Tom Odom]

Not exactly true--that's exactly what the regional centers like the Marshall Center and the Africa Center for Strategic Studies do. They realized that for civilian control of the military to work, you have to have civilians who understand defense issues. So they include elected officials, civil servants, and representatives of civil society in their programs.

And to add to the point, it is very much the role of the country team regardless of composition to engage the conuntry's leadership regarding such assistance. We regrettably have a spotty record in this area; some CTs do it very well, others don't and it is NOT merely a question of DoD versus State. Some of the worst offenders in this arena that I knew were military. Most were on the pure security assistance track and the fell into the trap of "we don't do diplomacy, the ambassador does," which is absolute horse crap. Everyone on a CT is engaged in diplomacy because they have foreign counterparts. Part of the issue is the way that SAO duties have been taught in the past with a centric core of bean counter versus operational purpose.

Tom

[marct]

Here is a link (http://armedservices.house.gov/hearing_information.shtml) to some of the testimony before the Terrorism, Unconventional Threats and Capabilities Subcommittee joint with the Subcommittee on Research and Science Education of the Science and Technology Committee. It relates to the role of the social and behavioral sciences in national security.

[Ron Humphrey]

Here is a link (http://armedservices.house.gov/hearing_information.shtml) to some of the testimony before the Terrorism, Unconventional Threats and Capabilities Subcommittee joint with the Subcommittee on Research and Science Education of the Science and Technology Committee. It relates to the role of the social and behavioral sciences in national security.

There were some very enlightening portions:)

[Kivlonic]

Hi, I'm new to this discussion board, and for that matter the whole study of COIN strategy and tactics, however the issue of anthropologist in the war zone interest me, I'm about to finish my undergrad, could anyone suggest a graduate level program related to this, pacifically focusing on the Middle East?
Thanks.

[Abu Suleyman]

Hi, I'm new to this discussion board, and for that matter the whole study of COIN strategy and tactics, however the issue of anthropologist in the war zone interest me, I'm about to finish my undergrad, could anyone suggest a graduate level program related to this, pacifically focusing on the Middle East?
Thanks.

Kivlonic,

There are a wide variety of graduate programs available where you can study this sort of thing. I guess my question would be whether you intend to study anthropology as it relates to the war (i.e. how does human behavior affect war), or whether you intend to study the uses of anthropology in war (i.e. how should the sciences or scientists be used in war). If the former you should look at anthropology programs, which are wide, and varied. If the latter, you should look into political science, or international relations.


The bad news is this, (and you probably already know it), most of the better programs application deadlines are long past. Some may have rolling enrollment, but that usually means that you can start in winter, instead of fall.

My advice is the following: If you have at least a year left in school take a class or two in anthropology or one of the Political Sciences that would relate to something like this. If you are about to graduate, and you are interested in the actual prosecution of COIN there is no better 'graduate education' than to get down to business with the the Army or Marine Corps, and you should give serious thought to that. If you cannot serve for some reason, or consider that an unacceptable option (and my only advice on that would be to not let your pride stop you from following what you truly want to do), then you have a year to look at what really interests you.

Sadly, I don't think there is any way that you can get into a program starting in fall. That is not always a huge issue though. You may not have considered all of the commitment that graduate education entails. And what you are interested in now, may not interest you in the long run. If you have a year to burn, don't waste it. Take a class or two; get a job that relates (civilian intelligence); read up (this forum is a great place to start); take your GRE again (required at most universities for admissions to graduate school), and write.

I don't know if any of that helps, but I found myself in a similar position mwwmfr years ago. I joined the army, learned Arabic, went to Iraq, and am now returning to graduate education all these many years later. I think the pause helped me to focus in on what I really wanted to do, and it has also made me much more highly marketable. If I had done it the other way around, I don't think I could have done it.

[Rex Brynen]

I would echo the excellent advice from Abu Suleyman.

It is too late to be applying to a graduate programme now--aim for fall 2009.

I also agree that its useful getting some practical experience before graduate school. I did a short stint in the (Canadian) reserves before going on for my graduate degrees. If you don't want to make the full commitment to the Army or Marines, you could also consider internship or volunteer with a UN agency or NGO in the field--its another essential part of peace and stabilization operations, and easier to arrange for a 4-12 month period.

[Beelzebubalicious]

I graduated with a Masters in Applied Anthropology from the University of Maryland, College Park. It's a sort of self-directed program. You have to choose one of their four or five broad areas, but within that you select what your focus is going to be and then you research and prepare a capstone project. If you select a topic (for me, anthropology of violence/war) for which there is no corresponding faculty member, it's up to you to figure it out and work it out, but you can also select from a wider group of faculty (I took one from the conflict studies program) for your advisor group. I preferred this approach since nobody is going to give you a career and what everyone needs to do is figure out what' the best way to define your niche and who are the people that can help you along the way.

Of course, most of what I've learned about war and violence is from my own eyes and ears (to the extent that I've kept them open).

[Kivlonic]

Beelzebubalicious, Rex Brynen, Abu Suleyman,
-Thanks for the advice.
Yes most deadlines have past, and Brynen I agree, I wold definitely like to get some experience before jumping into more academics, I have looked into OCS etc, (still considering this) and I do believe experience is the best knowledge one could have - I'm in the process of going through UN programs, NGOs, etc. but none seem very promising. Spent last summer in Beirut taking Arabic, was looking into going back for grad school but several people have told me the more time I spend abroad (the Middle East) the longer my application process, backround checks become. Peace and conflict management interest me, though I would much rather "get my hands dirty," in field studies than studying IR. Is there any paticular program you can suggest?
You guys have been alot of help, I graduating in 3 weeks so I guess I have alot of decisions to make. Got to go hand in a paper on Phoenix for my Vietnam class, wish I would of found this board earlier in college - would of made research a hell of alot easier!
-Thanks again.

[marct]

You guys have been alot of help, I graduating in 3 weeks so I guess I have alot of decisions to make. Got to go hand in a paper on Phoenix for my Vietnam class, wish I would of found this board earlier in college - would of made research a hell of alot easier!

Phoenix :rolleyes:!?! Make sure you reference some of David Price's work :wry:!

On graduate programs, you might want to contact Jeremy Littlewood at Carleton in the Norman Patterson Schol of International Affairs (http://www.carleton.ca/npsia/); Jez runs the Canadian Centre of Intelligence and Security and Intelligence Studies (http://www.carleton.ca/cciss/struct_org.htm)(part of NPSIA). There's a good group of people at Carleton looking into State building, Security, etc.

Marc

[marct]

Hi Folks,

Hot off the presses....
Dear Editors,

Having long been an admirer of Newsweek, I found your failure to fact check the story by Dan Ephron & Silvia Springs entitled "A gun in one hand, a pen in the other" (21 April issue) completely shocking. One naturally expects more from Newsweek than such sloppy journalism.

Below you will find a list of factual corrections and some more general points about the article.

FACTUAL ERRORS:

1) "the idea is to recruit academics whose area expertise and language skills" - Incorrect. In fact, the goal of HTS is to recruit social scientists with the appropriate research skills and methodological approaches. There are very, very few social scientists in the US who have the requisite knowledge of Iraq or Afghanistan, since these countries have been closed to research for many decades. However, if the social scientist on a team is not an Arabic speaker, other members of the team possess the requisite area expertise and language skills.

2) "only three speak Arabic" - Incorrect. Each team in Iraq and Afghanistan has members who speak the local language, although this person is not necessarily the social scientist. As of 14 April, there are 38 HTS personnel in Iraq distributed among 5 teams (slightly higher than normal, since we are in transition and executing some individual Reliefs in Place). 8 of those personnel are Social Scientists. 13 of those personnel speak Arabic,of which 2 are Social Scientists and 11 are Human Terrain Analysts or Research Managers.

3) "Johnson served in Afghanistan on a pilot Human Terrain team last year" - Incorrect. Tom Johnson was never a team member, but merely visited theater for two weeks.

4) Tom Johnson is a "Pashto speaker", and "spent much of his time there interviewing Afghans in their homes" - Incorrect. According to Tom Johnson, he has no idea where this information came from -- "surely not me."

5) "Omar Altalib was one of only two Iraqi-Americans in the program" - Incorrect. Actually the program currently has about 20 Iraqi Americans.

6) Social scientists earn "$300,000" a year - Overstated. This is true only if hazard pay, overtime, and danger pay are included. The base salary is a low six figures.

7) "Steve Fondacaro...........a retired Special Forces colonel.." - Incorrect. COL Fondacaro (ret'd) has never been in Army Special Forces. His experience as Special Operations Force (SOF) officer was exclusively with 75th Ranger Regiment and higher Headquarters.

8) "Fondacaro says overseers had to rush through the start-up phase because Pentagon planners wanted the terrain teams in Iraq quickly" - Incorrect. The requirement to put teams in country was in response to the Joint Urgent Operational Needs Statement (JUONS) that came from the units in the war zone. Pentagon planners actually slowed the process down to carefully analyze and validate the need.

9) the contract "was handed to British Aerospace Engineering (BAE) without a bidding process" - Overstated. BAE is the omnibus contractor for TRADOC and for a start-up program, this was a normal process. Once HTS becomes a program of record, the contract will be bid out.

10) "The rest are social scientists or former GIs" - Incorrect. Actually, much of the manpower is made up of US Army reserves.

11) "the anthropologists sent to Iraq..." - Incorrect. Not all of the social scientists on teams are anthropologists.

12) "the relationship between civilian academics and military or ex-military team members was sometimes strained" - Incorrect. The environment in the training program is very different than a year ago, which is the period the quoted sources were familiar with.

13) "40-year-old expert on trash" - Incorrect. Actually, Dr. Griffin is an anthropologist with an interest in food security and economics.

GENERAL ISSUES

1) The main input to the article came from two individuals who were terminated for cause, and whose knowledge is outdated.

2) The article's main premise is that the majority of HTS social scientists are not Middle East specialists with fluency in Arabic. Fair enough, but Human Terrain Teams include personnel with language, regional, and local area knowledge in addition to social scientists. The teams are not just the lone social science advisor that the media has tended to focus upon. As teams, they include a variety of individuals uniquely suited to understanding the social, political, economic and cultural aspects of the population in question -- both military and civilian.

3) In the article, the significance of research methods was downplayed in favor of language and culture area skills. Certain subfields require formal area studies training, but as whole, social scientists are trained to apply their knowledge of analytical frameworks and research methodologies across different locales, based on the premise that the dynamics of human behavior exhibit certain universal features. This does not mean that social scientists cannot be area experts: many are, given their past research. However, what social scientists bring to the table is a way of looking at the social world, studying it, and analyzing it in a way that is distinct from the way the military approaches these issues.

4) That soldiers on their second- or third- tours possess inestimable knowledge about the area in which they are operating is undeniable. Yet, as currently organized, combat brigades do not possess the organic staff capability or assets to organize this knowledge and look at the broad questions that HTTs are concerned with. While civil affairs soldiers are the closest to such an organic asset, along with information operations, these assets are mission-focused and often lack the manpower to engage in the sort of question-formulation and asking that HTTs can. Nor do these assets always include personnel trained in social scientific analysis. Therefore, it is the job of HTTs to take the knowledge these soldiers have gleaned, to examine the information already being gathered on the ground on a daily basis, engage in original research, and consider this information in terms of broader issues from a different perspective in order to add to the brigade commander's situational awareness of the social, economic, political, cultural and psychological factors at work in the environment.

5) All this was explained to both Dan Ephron & Silvia Spring, but none of it is reflected in the article.

GEN Wallace, the commander of TRADOC, has written a letter to the editors of Newsweek regarding this article, which I hope you will consider publishing. You may also consider this email as a 'letter to the editor' and publish any or all of it.

I hope in the future that Newsweek will hold itself to a higher standard of journalism.

Warm regards,

Montgomery McFate, JD PhD

As a note, Newsweek won't correct their factual errors until they are provided with the names of everyone in field - a clear OPSEC breach. Since they had the opportunity to interview everyone before deployment, one has to wonder....

[Abu Suleyman]

Peace and conflict management interest me, though I would much rather "get my hands dirty," in field studies than studying IR. Is there any paticular program you can suggest?


I am assuming you are American. If you are considering OCS, there is a great page at http://www.armyocs.org/ that will answer a lot of your questions. Just be aware that if you join either the Army or, I believe, the Marines, they do not let you pick your specialty as an officer. That isn't as important as it may seem, since a lieutenant is a lieutenant, and you will get a pretty good chance to see the war regardless of specialty (although more direct with a combat arm to be sure).

If you decide the military is not the way to go, you might look at State Department, specifically foreign service. I don't have any first hand knowledge, but people I talk to tell me that they are desperate for people who are willing to go to Iraq. As an undergraduate social scientist, it will be hard to get a job in the field, unless you go with an agency of some kind. Pretty much every government agency has some kind of intelligence or outreach program that will get you either analytical or practical experience. The problem with most government positions is that it may take just as long as applying to graduate school to actually get the job.

Remember, it doesn't matter where you go, you are going to have to pay dues, and learn the ropes, and that is often going to include things that you are not as interested in. Sometimes, though, it exposes you to things that you are more interested in, and didn't even know existed. The important thing is to show that you are good at thinking and working, and then the specialties will open up. It may be tempting to try to bypass that introductory phase, but while some people make it most just get in over their head and drown. And even those who do are stuck, and eventually want to leave, but don't have strong enough fundamentals, and can't.

[SteveMetz]

I don't know if it's changed, but when I was looking at the Foreign Service, they had 20K people a year take the written test, 2K pass that, 400 pass the oral exam, and about 200 get offers. They then had extended training. The normal age of entry was upper 20s, and the vast majority had an MA or better.

[marct]

Hi Kivlonik,

One of my (ex) students applied for a government job (in Canada) and for his MA at the same time. He finally got the job offer for the position he had applied for the day before he defended his MA thesis :cool:.

Marc

[120mm]

Marct and I were discussing novels that addressed "radical Anthropologists" and I've just come upon a gem: David Weber's "Off Armageddon Reef".

It is a novel set in the future, where a mysterious ancient race has wiped out humanity "except" a single shipload of humans who come upon a habitable planet. Sometime during the journey from now-destroyed humanity, radical Anthropologists and Sociologists have seized control of the "Ark Project", and decided that humanity itself was at fault for being wiped out, because their technology drew the mysterious race to destroy them.

So, the "Social Scientists" kill everyone who oppose them, and drum up a "religion" to prevent mankind from ever using technology again.

Of course, these "Social Scientists" really don't understand history, religion or technology, so their "religion" is just a straw man, and mankind, after a short millenium is on the cusp of embracing tech again. Add to this a cybernetic organism that several engineers hid from the "Social Scientists" just in case, which is timed to activate after 1000 years, and you have a very interesting novel, which turns the "alternative history" genre on its head.

Good read, so far.

[Abu Suleyman]

I don't know if it's changed, but when I was looking at the Foreign Service, they had 20K people a year take the written test, 2K pass that, 400 pass the oral exam, and about 200 get offers. They then had extended training. The normal age of entry was upper 20s, and the vast majority had an MA or better.

I have no information on hiring processes, although the three people I have known who joined the foreign service did not have M.A.' (they all spoke a foreign language though, which may be just as good). However, what I was thinking of was this how they are having a hard time with volunteers for duty in Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/15/AR2008041503145.html). Of course, that may not have resulted in a change in hiring.

This actually sort of brings us back to the original question of this thread, which is the shortage of 'non-soldier types' like anthropologists, and Foreign Service Officers in the war zone. I think that if Kivlonic wants to 'get his hands dirty' there should be plenty of opportunity, but maybe there just isn't, outside the military, or an advanced degree. Why is that? And how could we fix that? Would things be better in Iraq if we did?

[Tom Odom]

One place to look into is the George Bush School of Government and Public Service (http://bush.tamu.edu/) where they are schooling PRT memberrs.

Tom

[SteveMetz]

I have no information on hiring processes, although the three people I have known who joined the foreign service did not have M.A.' (they all spoke a foreign language though, which may be just as good). However, what I was thinking of was this how they are having a hard time with volunteers for duty in Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/15/AR2008041503145.html). Of course, that may not have resulted in a change in hiring.

This actually sort of brings us back to the original question of this thread, which is the shortage of 'non-soldier types' like anthropologists, and Foreign Service Officers in the war zone. I think that if Kivlonic wants to 'get his hands dirty' there should be plenty of opportunity, but maybe there just isn't, outside the military, or an advanced degree. Why is that? And how could we fix that? Would things be better in Iraq if we did?


I'll admit that when *I* was a candidate for the foreign service, John Quincy Adams was Secretary of State.

Just for the record, I passed the written and oral exams but failed my physical because of damage to my knee from an old high school football injury. At the time I was running 8 miles a day and had just finished the season in a grad school basketball league, so go figger.

[marct]

Hi 120,

Marct and I were discussing novels that addressed "radical Anthropologists" and I've just come upon a gem: David Weber's "Off Armageddon Reef".

I picked it up when it first came out; now I want the next one :D.

So, the "Social Scientists" kill everyone who oppose them, and drum up a "religion" to prevent mankind from ever using technology again.

Of course, these "Social Scientists" really don't understand history, religion or technology, so their "religion" is just a straw man, and mankind, after a short millenium is on the cusp of embracing tech again. Add to this a cybernetic organism that several engineers hid from the "Social Scientists" just in case, which is timed to activate after 1000 years, and you have a very interesting novel, which turns the "alternative history" genre on its head.

He used a similar form of social engineering in the third book of the Empire from the Ashes trilogy (Heirs of Empire) (http://www.baen.com/blurbs/0671877070.htm), and he and Steve White used it in a much earlier novel Crusade (http://www.webscription.net/10.1125/Baen/0671721119/0671721119.htm?blurb). I get the feeling that he doesn't really like organized religions ;). Then again, it's a moderately common motif in a fair bit of military SF - look at John Ringo's Legacy of the Alldentata (http://www.baen.com/series_list.asp#GF) series as an example.

On a related note, I have a feeling that a lot of it comes from a totally different viewpoint, mainly about time. I'm still playing with this, but I suspect that the perceptual time differences between cultures (including occupational sub-cultures) accounts for a large amount of tension between groups.

[120mm]

Hi 120,
I picked it up when it first came out; now I want the next one :D.
You're kidding me. He doesn't have a sequel out? He needs to get off his butt and write one. I'm pumped for the next book, as well.
He used a similar form of social engineering in the third book of the Empire from the Ashes trilogy (Heirs of Empire) (http://www.baen.com/blurbs/0671877070.htm), and he and Steve White used it in a much earlier novel Crusade (http://www.webscription.net/10.1125/Baen/0671721119/0671721119.htm?blurb). I get the feeling that he doesn't really like organized religions ;). Then again, it's a moderately common motif in a fair bit of military SF - look at John Ringo's Legacy of the Alldentata (http://www.baen.com/series_list.asp#GF) series as an example.

You know, I see his writing as being very "religion-friendly" despite his obvious negative views of the bureaucratic religious organization. His heroes/heroines tend to have strongly held fundamental religious beliefs, though they are nearly always at odds with "establishment" beliefs.

[marct]

You're kidding me. He doesn't have a sequel out? He needs to get off his butt and write one. I'm pumped for the next book, as well.

Nah, he's been "wasting" his time writing a new series with Linda Evans :cool:.

You know, I see his writing as being very "religion-friendly" despite his obvious negative views of the bureaucratic religious organization. His heroes/heroines tend to have strongly held fundamental religious beliefs, though they are nearly always at odds with "establishment" beliefs.

I think he's drawing on a fundamental distinction that really started emerging in the 60's between "spirituality" and "religion". Actually, it's another one of those cases where it's just an update of a perennial debate, in this case between immanentalsm and trascendentalism - is the locus of morality/ethics/what have you inside the individual or outside of them?

Obviously, in most cases, it's a combination if for no other reason than most people need symbol systems to interpret their experiences and these are, by definition, inter-subjective (if they aren't, we call them "psychotic delusional" ;)). What I think he does do is make a heavy distinction between a hypertrophied system (the bureaucratic "religion" and the fanatics produced within it) and individuals who use the system but interiorize it (i.e. make it their own).

[marct]

From MEMRI.

Saudi Anthropologist Sa'd Al-Sowayan Advocates Modern Interpretation of Religious Texts, Suggests Swords Be Removed from Saudi Flag

Video here (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1757.htm) (may require plugin)
Excerpts here (http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD192008)

I have to wonder how long it will be before someone issues a fatwa on him :wry:.

[Ron Humphrey]

From MEMRI.



Video here (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1757.htm) (may require plugin)
Excerpts here (http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD192008)

I have to wonder how long it will be before someone issues a fatwa on him :wry:.

This has become a more and more common thing in the middle east recently and I think those who might be tempted have started to realize if they try that it will very likely backfire and they sure can't afford that.

[marct]

Hi Ron,

This has become a more and more common thing in the middle east recently and I think those who might be tempted have started to realize if they try that it will very likely backfire and they sure can't afford that.

Definitely agree that it is becoming moire common - or at least I am seeing more coverage of it, which is not the same thing :wry:. Still and all, some of the extremist groups also seem to be issuing fatwas more often - probably all part of the offshoot of increased communications.

[marct]

The long-awaited HTS website is available at http://humanterrainsystem.army.mil/index.htm. I will refrain from commenting on any aspects of the design :cool:, but let me just say that it is reflective of "institutional design" at it's w.... errr, "best" :rolleyes:.

[Ron Humphrey]

Hi Ron,



Definitely agree that it is becoming moire common - or at least I am seeing more coverage of it, which is not the same thing :wry:. Still and all, some of the extremist groups also seem to be issuing fatwas more often - probably all part of the offshoot of increased communications.

There is definately more visibility then I've seen before , but on the Fatwa thing I think that they might find out why printing more money when you run out doesn't fix the problem, Darned inflation sucks.

Not to mention the old adage about not making promises you can't keep:wry:

[marct]

There is definately more visibility then I've seen before , but on the Fatwa thing I think that they might find out why printing more money when you run out doesn't fix the problem, Darned inflation sucks.

Not to mention the old adage about not making promises you can't keep:wry:

LOLOL - too true! A point strangely brought home by CBC today. It turns out that Salman Rushdie is in town (Ottawa) and I doubt there is much extra security. Any potential irhabis are just referred to one of our local cabs which will just guarantee that they don't reach their target :D.

[slapout9]

The long-awaited HTS website is available at http://humanterrainsystem.army.mil/index.htm. I will refrain from commenting on any aspects of the design :cool:, but let me just say that it is reflective of "institutional design" at it's w.... errr, "best" :rolleyes:.


marct, It sure looks like they eat good overthere:wry:

[marct]

marct, It sure looks like they eat good overthere:wry:

To true, Slap! I gotta get me some of that.

http://humanterrainsystem.army.mil/Image9.jpg

And to think that I just had to spend an hour defrosting a pork roast when that was available. 'nuf to make me cry ;).

[Rex Brynen]

Rule one, for neophyte HTTs. If that is mansaf--and it looks like it is--for goodness sake, don't eat it with a spoon. It makes you look such a wuss.

(The proper technique is ball it in your hand, squeeze gently, and pop in your mouth with your thumb. The amount of rice stuck to your hand after is a good indicator of whether you know what you are doing...)

Bonus advice: if they serve it with mukh (sheep's brains), as they sometimes do in Iraq... it is far more palatable when followed by large chasers of araq. In fact, large amounts of araq work with just about anything :D

[marct]

Bonus advice: if they serve it with mukh (sheep's brains), as they sometimes do in Iraq... it is far more palatable when followed by large chasers of araq. In fact, large amounts of araq work with just about anything :D

Too true, Rex!! Although, I must admit to a preference for the Turkish version of arak - you know, the stuff that's been sitting in a stone bottle for a century or so :D. I've often thought that a really good way to do interviews for the HTTs would be to serve a "dinner" ;).

[selil]

C4ISR Journal has a pretty good quickie story on the HTTs this month too. No online version I could find though.

[Ken White]

country I've been to where I never had a bad meal, not one. Even enjoyed the eyeballs...

[120mm]

Mmmmm... Grabagoat. My favorite!

[Tom Odom]

From MarcT who is on the road

passed by the USMC IA

For those of you who have not heard, Michael Bhatia has been killed in
Afghanistan. I do not know if the details provided in the Chronicle story (see here (http://chronicle.com/news/article/4460/social-scientist-in-armys)) are true, but have heard nothing to the
contrary. He is a great loss.

It sounds like his colleagues at Brown and in the UK are setting up
scholarship funds. When I get detail about that, I will pass it along.

Blessings and best wishes to Dr. Bhatia's family in this time of loss,

Tom

[marct]

Thanks again for posting this, Tom. I find that posting here using a Blackberry just isn't really that feasible :wry:.

On a related note, I was at the 2008 Canadian Anthropology Society (http://www.casca2008.anthropologica.ca/) (CASCA) meetings yesterday which are being held at Carleton here in Ottawa. Last night the keynote address was given by Catherine Lutz (http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Anthropology/faculty/lutz.shtml) on Ethnography in an Era of Permanent War. Michael's death wasn't mentioned at all, although she probably didn't know about it. The talk, to my mind at least, was rather disjointed.

[Beelzebubalicious]

There's a little more info on Bhatia in a Danger Room article at http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/05/human-terrain-s.html#more, including an essay he wrote for the Globalist titled, "Shooting Afghanistan: Beyond the Conflict (III)" (http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=6418). It's a 3-part series you can access from this link.

Here's a guy who walked it the way he talked it. It's clear he thought he could make a positive difference by working through the HTS and I think that says a lot.

[SWJED]

“The program has a real chance of reducing both the Afghan and American lives lost, as well as ensuring that the US/NATO/ISAF strategy becomes better attuned to the population’s concerns, views, criticisms, and interests and better supports the Government of Afghanistan.”

--Michael Vinay Bhatia, November 2007

I've placed what links I could find on the SWJ (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2008/05/human-terrain-team-member-kill-1/).

From the Human Terrain System,

It is with deep sorrow that we must inform you of the tragic death of Michael Bhatia, our social scientist team member assigned to the Afghanistan Human Terrain Team #1, in support of Task Force Currahee based at FOB SALERNO, Khowst Province.

Michael was killed on May 7 when the Humvee he was riding in was struck by an IED. Michael was traveling in a convoy of four vehicles, which were en route to a remote sector of Khowst province. For many years, this part of Khowst had been plagued by a violent inter-tribal conflict concerning land rights. Michael had identified this tribal dispute as a research priority, and was excited to finally be able to visit this area. This trip was the brigade's initial mission into the area, and it was their intention to initiate a negotiation process between the tribes.

Michael was in the lead vehicle with four other soldiers. Initial forensics indicate that the IED was triggered by a command detonated wire. Michael died immediately in the explosion. Two Army soldiers from Task Force Currahee were also killed in the attack, and two were critically injured.

During the course of his seven-month tour, Michael's work saved the lives of both US soldiers and Afghan civilians. His former brigade commander, COL Marty Schweitzer testified before Congress on 24 April that the Human Terrain Team of which Michael was a member helped the brigade reduce its lethal operations by 60 to 70%, increase the number of districts supporting the Afghan government from 15 to 83, and reduce Afghan civilian deaths from over 70 during the previous brigade's tour to 11 during the 4-82's tour.

A copy of Colonel Schweitzer's comments can be found at the Human Terrain System web page.

We will remember Michael for his personal courage, his willingness to endure danger and hardship, his incisive intelligence, his playful sense of humor, his confidence, his devoted character, and his powerful inner light. While his life has ended, he has not disappeared without a trace. He left a powerful effect behind, which will be felt by his friends and colleagues and by the people of Afghanistan for many years to come.

Steve Fondacaro
Program Manager

Montgomery McFate
Senior Social Science Advisor

Human Terrain System
US Army TRADOC

[marct]

“I've placed what links I could find on the SWJ (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2008/05/human-terrain-team-member-kill-1/).

Thanks for doing this. The story hasn't seemed to be up on the Anthropology blogs yet (even if Michael was a political scientist).

[SWJED]

Here's a guy who walked it the way he talked it. It's clear he thought he could make a positive difference by working through the HTS and I think that says a lot.

Well said.

[Mike Innes]

I don't think I can add anything to the discussion on this. I stumbled across early mention of it in two blogs run by people who knew him, and then tried to disseminate the news as quickly and widely as I could. I suspect that was already being done web-wide by more than a few people. A sorry day. Thanks to SJW for posting the HTS news release and all the links to sites mentioning Michael Bhatia's death.

[negotiator6]

PH D is far too "eduational"..They are not going to find personnel with PHD's to bump around in a Humvee around the back roads of Paktia or Khwost Provnces adjacent to the Paki border. The application of cultural awareness, language skills and an outward bound mentality should to the mission well.

And, they better pay alot...

[selil]

PH D is far too "eduational"..They are not going to find personnel with PHD's to bump around in a Humvee around the back roads of Paktia or Khwost Provnces adjacent to the Paki border. The application of cultural awareness, language skills and an outward bound mentality should to the mission well.

And, they better pay alot...

Good PhD's do field work.

As Indiana Jones said, "You have to get out of the library and into the field", I think a lot Phd's realize that. Now training for a year, preparing for being shot at, and in general being in harms way, that might be a problem. That and what I am coming to find as a military culture that is extremely hostile to anybody who has even a wee bitty amount of education.. Where did I put my beer?

[sandbag]

A couple of business/infrastructure types wouldn't hurt, either. Economics drives the human terrain just as much as tribal lines.

[Rex Brynen]

They are not going to find personnel with PHD's to bump around in a Humvee around the back roads of Paktia or Khwost Provnces adjacent to the Paki border.

Actually, I'm not sure that's quite the problem you think it is. Take today, for example: I got an email this morning from one of my PhD students who is off interviewing both Islamists and secret policemen in a Middle Eastern country, had another graduate student drop by 5 minutes ago to discuss her impending fieldwork in a country on the verge of civil war (she's already been evacuated from a war zone one), and later this afternoon have a meeting with a third who was imprisoned for a year for his earlier research and activism in an authoritarian regime.

The bigger problem, actually, is career interruption. For recent PhD students and graduates who hope to eventually land academic jobs, there could a real cost long-term to losing a year or two of thesis-writing, academic publication, and job interviews because one is deployed as part of a HTS.

[marct]

Hi Rex,

The bigger problem, actually, is career interruption. For recent PhD students and graduates who hope to eventually land academic jobs, there could a real cost long-term to losing a year or two of thesis-writing, academic publication, and job interviews because one is deployed as part of a HTS.

That hits the nail on the head! Another factor in the same problem, is the people who stay at home and sit on the hiring committees who may not be able to judge the validity of the HTS fieldwork. This is, IMO, one major problem inside Anthropology.

A couple of business/infrastructure types wouldn't hurt, either. Economics drives the human terrain just as much as tribal lines.

Good point, Sandbag. Personally, I wouldn't recommend most of the business types (although the crowd at UTS in the ICAN group is top-notch as are a few others). The big problem with the "business/infrastructure" crowd is that they confuse their economic practices with economics in the broader sense. BTW, tribal lines are the bedrock of economic activity in many cultures - a point missed by many of the management types ;).

[Surferbeetle]

Good point, Sandbag. Personally, I wouldn't recommend most of the business types (although the crowd at UTS in the ICAN group is top-notch as are a few others). The big problem with the "business/infrastructure" crowd is that they confuse their economic practices with economics in the broader sense. BTW, tribal lines are the bedrock of economic activity in many cultures - a point missed by many of the management types ;).

Guten Tag Marc!

Interesting post. What are you recommending for references/examples/reading about the two crowds and their methodologies/successes/failures?

Regards,

Steve

[marct]

Hi Steve,

Interesting post. What are you recommending for references/examples/reading about the two crowds and their methodologies/successes/failures?

Well, if I had to put together a reading list, it wold probably include Fernand Braudel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernand_Braudel), Stone Age Economics (http://www.amazon.com/Stone-Age-Economics-Marshall-Sahlins/dp/0202010996) by Marshall Sahlins, Karl Polanyi's The Livelihood of Man (http://www.amazon.com/Livelihood-Man-Studies-social-discontinuity/dp/0125481500/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211828676&sr=1-1), The Fur Trade in Canada (http://www.amazon.com/Fur-Trade-Canada-Introduction-Canadian/dp/0802081967/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211828735&sr=1-1) by Harold Innis, The Rise of the Network Society (http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Network-Society-New-Information/dp/0631221409/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211828845&sr=1-1) by Manuel Castells (if you you get by his Structural Marxist bias, it's pretty good) and Frameworks of Power (http://www.amazon.com/Frameworks-Power-Stewart-Clegg/dp/0803981619/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211829072&sr=1-5) by Stewart Clegg ( a really tough read but worth it).

What all of these have in common is that they look at economics as a social process: production, consumption and distribution via social means and how all of them interlink. One of the big problems with most of the business / management crowd is that they either focus on a single component of this (production, consumption, etc.) or they are locked into a single social view of what is "right".

[Stan]

Hey Marc !

Personally, I wouldn't recommend most of the business types (although the crowd at UTS in the ICAN group is top-notch as are a few others). The big problem with the "business/infrastructure" crowd is that they confuse their economic practices with economics in the broader sense. BTW, tribal lines are the bedrock of economic activity in many cultures - a point missed by many of the management types ;).

As always, A Hopeless Romantic You are and Will always BE :)

Tom could relate story upon story of professional economics officers merely stymied by an African economy gone wild, but yet still stable enough to trade USD in front of the US Embassy in broad daylight (except on Sundays).

While a bit of street smarts is certainly beneficial, I'm not ready to knock our intellectual crowd just this second. The program is barely out of infancy and needs more time to fully appreciate and realize its full potential.

Really enjoyed Dr. McFate's response (even better than the draft). Kinda "get your Sierra bible studies in order" or "take no prisoners" approach:cool:

Regards from a balmy Estonia (16 degrees C. today), Stan

[marct]

As always, A Hopeless Romantic You are and Will always BE :)

Always :D! That, and singing Baroque - Renaissance music, keeps me sane.

Tom could relate story upon story of professional economics officers merely stymied by an African economy gone wild, but yet still stable enough to trade USD in front of the US Embassy in broad daylight (except on Sundays).

I've heard that one ;). Actually, it's a really good case in point - so many "economists" confuse the formality with the reality (the Substantivist-Formalist debate for those with a passing academic interest).

Really enjoyed Dr. McFate's response (even better than the draft). Kinda "get your Sierra bible studies in order" or "take no prisoners" approach

I hope she doesn't come down with a case of PSTSD (Post-Structuralist Traumatic Stress Disorder; similar to PTSD or Shell Shock, PSTSD frequently affects people who have to deal with theologically inclined academics). Actually, I like her style, too. I think she would be a lot of fun to get into a proper, Anthro style, argument with; aka argue about nothing important just for the fun of it with a lot of booze ;)

Regards from a balmy Estonia (16 degrees C. today), Stan

Man, it's warm there! We had a frost warning last night...

[Beelzebubalicious]

Stan, it was 16 C and raining today in Kiev. Russians trying to create an Abkhazia in Crimea. Beat that.

Marc, I did share a beer with Dr. McFate at Leavenworth a few years ago at a IO symposium. She was presenting her case for cultural anthropology in the DOD and showing parts of what later became the HTT. It was interesting and I can attest to the fact that she is a good person to chat and have a beer with.

Unfortunately, that was the extent of my involvement and I was subsequently shipped off to Ukraine and never heard from again, save for my occasional random posts on SWC!

Eric

[Shek]

Guten Tag Marc!

Interesting post. What are you recommending for references/examples/reading about the two crowds and their methodologies/successes/failures?

Regards,

Steve

Steve,

While not readings that will point out methodologies/successes/failures, these are good readings to understand the role that culture and acculturation plays in economics.

This first one looks at how different cultures play the standard "ultimatum" game: http://www.santafe.edu/~bowles/InSearchHomoEconomicus2001.pdf (a longer version that spells out the cultural linkages to outcomes can be found here: http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/anthro/faculty/boyd/MacGamesBBSFinal.pdf). There's also a book edited by the same primary author that goes into much greater depth.

This second one is written by James Surowiecki and shows how it took many, many moons for Western society to develop the trust outside of their traditional contacts (family and their immediate community) to make a broad market economy possible.

Lastly, this book, http://www.amazon.com/Worldly-Philosophers-Lives-Economic-Thinkers/dp/068486214X, spells out how economics as a discipline is relatively a newcomer to the field - Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations", published in 1776, is often used as the beginning of modern economics (which really was the study of political economy until just over a century ago when it began to focus much more on the positive science and ignoring/de-emphasizing much of the normative). It's first two chapters talks about how broad market economics is a relatively new phenomenom, with command and family/tribe/community economics being the two existing options prior to the development of the broad market economy.

[Rex Brynen]

This first one looks at how different cultures play the standard "ultimatum" game:

One of my favourite findings from the ultimatum game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game) is that only economists act as economists predict--that is, that economics students are much more self-interested, rational, utility-mazimizers than are non-economics students, and hence make stingier offers in the game.

J.R. CARTER and M. IRONS (1991), Are Economists Different, and If So, Why?, Journal of Economic Perspectives 5/2 (1991), pp. 171 – 177.

Article here (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1942691) if you have JSTOR access.

I have never seen the study done with military personnel (although I haven't really looked)--it would be interesting, actually, to see whether they to deviate in significant ways from the general population in their perceptions of profit, loss, altruism, etc--and if so, in which directions..

[Shek]

One of my favourite findings from the ultimatum game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game) is that only economists act as economists predict--that is, that economics students are much more self-interested, rational, utility-mazimizers than are non-economics students, and hence make stingier offers in the game.

J.R. CARTER and M. IRONS (1991), Are Economists Different, and If So, Why?, Journal of Economic Perspectives 5/2 (1991), pp. 171 – 177.

Article here (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1942691) if you have JSTOR access.

Rex,

Chimpanzees behave rationally as well. Guess that doesn't say much about me :eek:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071005104104.htm

I have never seen the study done with military personnel (although I haven't really looked)--it would be interesting, actually, to see whether they to deviate in significant ways from the general population in their perceptions of profit, loss, altruism, etc--and if so, in which directions..

I'm going to play the ultimatum game on the first day of my comparative economic systems class in the fall to illustrate how culture plays a role in your economic system and will let you know. I suspect that the "cooperate and graduate" mantra will amplify the general result that you see equitable offers in capitalistic societies.

[Rex Brynen]

I'm going to play the ultimatum game on the first day of my comparative economic systems class in the fall to illustrate how culture plays a role in your economic system and will let you know. I suspect that the "cooperate and graduate" mantra will amplify the general result that you see equitable offers in capitalistic societies.

I use it in class every year, in my peacebuilding/post conflict course, to highlight how the behaviour of parties in negotiation is shaped not only by relative power differentials and utility-maximization, but also by perceptions of "fairness" (justice, etc).

[Beelzebubalicious]

Not sure where to post this, but Wired Danger Room came out with a funny blog entry today and the subject is Montgomery McFate...Check it out at
Do Pentagon Studs Make You Want to Bite Your Fist? (http://blog.wired.com/defense/human_terrain/index.html)

[marct]

Not sure where to post this, but Wired Danger Room came out with a funny blog entry today and the subject is Montgomery McFate...Check it out at
Do Pentagon Studs Make You Want to Bite Your Fist? (http://blog.wired.com/defense/human_terrain/index.html)

I started to write a response to the piece, but ended up blogging about it (http://marctyrrell.com/2008/06/21/of-joking-relationships/) instead.

[Ron Humphrey]

I started to write a response to the piece, but ended up blogging about it (http://marctyrrell.com/2008/06/21/of-joking-relationships/) instead.

I can tell you from my limited experiences if it weren't for those Joke relationships a lot of times somebody would end up getting hurt. It really is a large part of how many soldiers deal with the various issues which confront them.

It's also kinda fun too:wry:

[marct]

Hi Ron,

I can tell you from my limited experiences if it weren't for those Joke relationships a lot of times somebody would end up getting hurt. It really is a large part of how many soldiers deal with the various issues which confront them.

It does seem to be a good, and fairly universal, way of staying if not sane, then at east not depressed :D.

It's also kinda fun too:wry:

Oh, definitely!!! :cool::D

[Darksaga]

Michael was awarded the Defense of Freedom Medal posthumously.

[Kivlonic]

Not sure if this is the proper place to post or if the piece has already been up loaded to the forum, http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7496375.stm
I understand fighting an ideology with an reverse ideology, but it seems the main point is that only the State (SA) can authorize jihad...
The ping pong made me laugh though.

sorry hopefully this link works...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7496375.stm

[Entropy]

Ran across this today. (http://www.terraplexic.org/ethnographic-intelligence/)

[BayonetBrant]

I forwarded that list to a retired COL I know who's headed to Iraq with an HTT and he was very appreciative of it. Great find!

[Entropy]

That's great! - I'm glad it's proved useful.

[Darksaga]

Great link.

Thank you.

[davidbfpo]

Found on the Cryptome website: http://cryptome.org/hts-farce.htm

I make no comment and note it is part two of a series.

davidbfpo

[marct]

From what I have heard, the program does have some serious problems but I haven't been able to find out where they stem from. The entire HTS issue is too mired in political infighting for my taste :(. Personally, I really wish they would bring in an independent audit team to analyze the program.

[selil]

From what I have heard, the program does have some serious problems but I haven't been able to find out where they stem from. The entire HTS issue is too mired in political infighting for my taste :(. Personally, I really wish they would bring in an independent audit team to analyze the program.

Audit requires standards and practices. Where would those come from? I think the best we could expect is a cursory examination of hiring practices. Nobody on the anthro side is providing options, just yelling "we don't like you".

[marct]

Audit requires standards and practices. Where would those come from? I think the best we could expect is a cursory examination of hiring practices. Nobody on the anthro side is providing options, just yelling "we don't like you".

Some of the standards of practice are available, at least for the field side. On the management, recruiting and training side, there are a LOT of standards (often competing ;)). You're definitely right about the "We don't like you" whine coming from some people, though :(.

[Featherock]

that's a horrible piece of 'journalism' over at cryptome. Talk about not having any standards. Don't you just love this disclaimer at the end, about TRADOC not answering the writer's questions fast enough to meet his tight deadline? Deadline? Writing un-sourced blogs for the Web has a deadline?

Speaking

[Featherock]

Hey all you HTT news junkies, my feature story about the first HTT in Afghanistan is now out in the current (Sept.) issue of Harper's Magazine. Most of it will be old hat to those of you who know the subject well; it's written for people for whom COIN is something they carry in their pockets, not an acronym.

[davidbfpo]

Alas the story is on a subscription only basis and my IT skills could not expand the screen pages found via the search option. However this is the link for the "junkies": http://harpers.org/archive/2008/09/0082170

Perhaps Steve can persaude Harpers to allow SWC access, after all he is the author?

davidbfpo

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

the article has a link to a Mother Jones piece which the author seems to include to cast aspersions upon the reputation of Mitzie McFate. But the article pertains to a Mary McFate/Sapone who lives in FL and there is no mention in the piece of this particular woman's activities with HTS. WTFO!

[Ken White]

Mary McFate Sapone is the mother-in-law of Montgomery McFate.

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

so since Mongomery McFate's mother-in-law Mary is some sort of double agent/mole for the NRA this is a primary cause for the HTS program to be a waste of resources and totally off track.

That tie in makes absolutely perfect sense to me... :eek:

I'm so glad I gave up drinking Burma Shave!

[Ken White]

otherwise it makes your breath smell sort of er, sweet... ;)

OTOH, if we don't drink it at all any more, we'll miss out on the really cool journalism out there... :rolleyes:

Come to think of it, if we do miss out on that, we'll probably get smarter. :wry:

P.S.

To the squirrels, there need no tie-in other than their absolute knowledge that evil sticks together. Nor does anything have to make sense....

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

Now that is probably one of the greatest reasons for an edit! :D

Personally, I ascribe to Cliff Clavin's theory on the intellectual stimulation provided through the consumption of adult carbonated beverages. I found the theory works just as well with distilled spirits as well. :)

[Norfolk]

Now that is probably one of the greatest reasons for an edit! :D

Personally, I ascribe to Cliff Clavin's theory on the intellectual stimulation provided through the consumption of adult carbonated beverages. I found the theory works just as well with distilled spirits as well. :)

Alcohol is banned by the Olympics as a performance-enhancing substance.

Which explains why in the old days troops used to get an issue of booze just before battle - strong, unwatered wine for the Greek hoplites, thick rum for WWI infantrymen...:D

[Featherock]

the article has a link to a Mother Jones piece which the author seems to include to cast aspersions upon the reputation of Mitzie McFate. But the article pertains to a Mary McFate/Sapone who lives in FL and there is no mention in the piece of this particular woman's activities with HTS. WTFO!

Hmm... a link to a Mother Jones article in a blurb about my article? Wasn't aware of that. By "author" do you mean me? Cuz it ain't me. I can't seem to find this link. In any case, I don't mention McFate in the entire article.

[CR6]

Hmm... a link to a Mother Jones article in a blurb about my article? Wasn't aware of that. By "author" do you mean me? Cuz it ain't me. I can't seem to find this link. In any case, I don't mention McFate in the entire article.

Umar Al-Mokhtār is referring to the cryptome piece.

[Featherock]

oh right, the cryptome piece. 'piece' is precisely what it is. a piece of what I leave to your good opinion.