Close with and destroy the enemy
One should not have to chase the Taliban for days if one utilizes our doctrine and assets available.
1. Find them
2. Fix them
3. Finish them
So with that in mind I do not see an issue of trying to run down the Taliban for days on end. Worse case everything falls off with a pull of a few tabs if it truely comes down to that.
As I shake the cobwebs from the memory of Afghanistan in 02'. I have commented before about my load and lessons learned from that time. We wore IBA with mag pouches and one utility pouch. We carried 3 day assault packs with food (a lot of power bars and for myself milkbone dog biscuits and peanut butter), water, and ammo (cross loaded for the mortars or machine guns). In the mountains you threw in some snivel gear and a sleep system (usually bivy sack and patrol bag). Not a heavy load, very easily managable. We utilized UH-60s for resupply, mainly water. Was this the exception because I had decent leadership? To this day I question our lack of use of filteration pumps, chlorine tablets, etc..... Understand the focus not being on Afghanistan the past years and can see if there is a lack of assets in country to conduct resupplies, but also do not see how proper planning and coordination can't make it happen. Then do all resupplies need to be done by air?
Are we allowing technological advances to dictact what we carry, IMO the short answer = yes. Basically it comes down to the fact that we have forgotten basic skills that have worked for centuries, because we think technology is the answer. We have become soft and forgotten how to survive on what is available.
Wanted to stay generalized vs getting into "war stories" but do have specific examples of both ends of the spectrum from both theaters of operation.
METT the enemy and he was us...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Schmedlap
I don't think it's a matter of "getting soft" or forgetting anything.
Wrong issue, I think -- soft isn't the question. The issue should be what works best for that AO and that mission. One does not have to practice to be miserable -- but one, if a soldier, should be prepared to do what it takes to get the job done. I'm sure you always did and always would. Most guys and gals do. Only a few will try to sluff for various reasons. Today, many are not inclined to take risks or to commit people to the boonies without eleventy gallons of water each even if that makes mission sense. Each theater, each AO, each individual mission deserves a clean sheet look. Preconcieved ideas of what's needed or best get people killed. Every situation differs.
Quote:
What takes more time?
a) Locating, procuring, filtering, and chlorinating water
b) Bringing water with you
Answer: depends on the mission. I would argue that for the overwhelming majority of missions - your specific cases perhaps being the exception - the answer is (b). That's not "getting soft" or forgetting. That's doing what makes more sense.
True -- based on your experience in Iraq. What is the mission of the average rifle company in Afghanistan? How many Platoons are out there, scuffling around away from the Flag Pole. How many even smaller elements are out there. Different AO, different everything. Carrying water may be necessary, may not be.
Quote:
...Their response was, "back in my day, we drank water from our canteens and we filled our helmets with water to shave." That's nice. And that was better for what reason? I respect their nostalgia. I don't understand how it makes us more effective.
It wasn't better, it was the best that could be done at the time -- the point is not that it's better, it obviously is not -- point is simply it was done when it was necessary and could be again; METT dependent. Lacking a steel helmet to shave in, why not just go a couple of weeks without shaving? Quelle Horreur...:eek:
My personal best is 94 days without a shower and fourteen days on the button without shaving or brushing my teeth. That was then, this is now -- but I have no doubt that any number of troops today can do that without falling apart. I also have no doubt that whole units can do that and still be combat effective. The body will take a lot of abuse -- it'll pay you back later but why worry...;)
Quote:
...Add to that mix specific missions to go out and cache supplies? Time and troops available are already tapped out. Joe is going to need to carry his ammo and water.
Make no sense in Iraq or for some in Afghanistan, it all depends, as you said, on the mission. For SF and for light infantry distributed patrols in Platoon or smaller size, caches can makes sense or not -- it all depends on the mission, routes, time, intel -- all those things. Caches can also be planted by Unit A in January for Unit E to use a year later. I don't think he means it should always be done, just citing it as a technique. So is a rendezvous with a wheeled or tracked resupply effort or routing a patrol to a friendly outpost for resupply. All sorts of options.
My point and that of ODB (I think. He can speak for himself but I think I know where he's coming from...) and those old dudes is just that you do what needs to be done and preconceived notions about what is good may need to be relooked. Proper training would enable more people to do that, partly by letting them know what's possible and how to do some things if they become necessary, partly by letting them know it's not only alright to think differently, it is in fact, in combat a really good idea to do so. Such training would also teach people that they could shave with less than a Porta Cabin sink or an electric razor, that you can find and drink local water and get by on a canteen a day for a week or two with no great harm if that enhances mission accomplishment and that you don't need ten magazines and any more clothing changes than three pair of socks fo a couple of weeks or month on extended operations.
Soldiering is not as nice as life can be elsewhere, discomfort is not really necessary in many cases but where it is probably necessary to do some things like that, one should be able to order it done or to do it knowing that it's temporary and it can be done.
It's a lot easier to do -- and to order it done -- if folks know how to do it and the one ordering it knows they know how. That's where we've erred...
Light and mech are different worlds...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ODB
Did OEF 02' and OIF 03' with 101st. Went SF in 04.
Both do good work -- but they don't understand each other.
Almost as bad as SF and the whole Army..... :D
Purifying water for a start
I did eleven day patrols in Afghanistan and saw no water any where the whole time. Other times, it would have been unsafe regardless of the cholrine tabs. Water in that AO is so polluted with heavy metals, you would not want to risk it (in most places.)
Conditioning? You're kidding right?
I won't toot their horn, but the platoon I was attached to were good, very good, at staying in shape. Yeah, we rucked twice a week, lots of weight, usually 6 miles. The did IBA and pro mask runs. The regime was tough. Regardless, they did not make more than about 1200 m a day around Babol Kehyl. I think some of you may know the area, it was the scene of OP Anaconda. The loads were not excessive, but the mortars and MGs were toting a lot of weight. We simply could not move fast enough to be of any tactical use. Sure, could drop weight and work out of a PB, we did, but the bad guys know where you are and simply avoid contact.
This scenario is specfic to illustrate a larger point. We are conceding a great deal of our mobility. I don't see the payoff. Those with enough rank to refuse the pressure to add more armor, or set theatre policy to wear all of it, have that rank to ensure the soldiers are employed within their capability for a successful mission. It aint happen.
Sometimes you have to carry...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sapperfitz82
I did eleven day patrols in Afghanistan and saw no water any where the whole time. Other times, it would have been unsafe regardless of the cholrine tabs. Water in that AO is so polluted with heavy metals, you would not want to risk it (in most places.)
Sometimes you don't. Usually you don't. Most of the photos my kid in the 82d sent back from the 'Stan showed some water nearby.
Dicey water can hurt -- or not. Having drunk out of more rice paddies than I care to recall and never really having had an problems from eating or drinking locally all over the world, I'll now reveal my secret ;) :
Old Marine Gunnery Sergeant who had been around most of Central America between the world wars, as well as on a Cruiser in the Asian Squadron and all through WW II told me "Whenever you get to a new country, eat and drink the local stuff. Your stomach will rebel at the change of diet for a day or two and then you'll be okay. That way if you have to live off local food you can do it without getting dysentery when you least need it." He seemed to know what he was talking about so I did that in about 20 or so countries over the next 40 plus years. Worked for me.
When I got all the later pitches about not eating or drinking locally because of this or that bug, I just ignored 'em and continued to eat and drink local food and water. Annoyed the daylights out some folks... :D
Alright let's try this....
To those recently returned from Afghanistan what the hell were you carrying?
Why did you carry said items?
Could go on but think we get the jist of it......
Let's get to the heart of this, lets disect the loads and maybe help some future leaders in their decision making process. More knowledge on these boards than most units, lets put it to work and see what we can come up with.
Additionally we can look at Iraq, but think the main issue lies with Afghanistan.
Again this is key IMO: Finally I'll add that we need to get out of the risk averison mode we have entered. We are the business of accepting risks, but we must not continue to avoid risks. Yes, risk mitigation is a must. How do we learn to mitigate those risks, through training.
And can anyone answer this one: Why did the Army stopped doing top down building clearing?
In regards to caches, water purification etc..... just throwing out other options, imagination is a good thing, after all I seem to remembering hearing somewhere that war is a thinking mans game.
Speed balls don't work so well when they are in a compression sack being kicked out from a UH-60 as it is screaming by trying to get the hell outta there.
Three idly curious questions...
Why no ID card?
Why so much Ammo?
Why no cleaning kit per man?
Thanks. That all makes sense.
Though, since I'm old and out of date, I'm reminded of the ancient (Tutankhamun's army, I think...) Staff Ossfiers Dictum; "Answer the question, answer the question that should have been asked and answer the questions your answer will generate." This is probably my fault for being too dumb to ask the right question and detail. However, more curiosity:
1. In the unlikely event you're asked to produce said card by someone who like an airline ticket clerk or a busybody MP who wants to see a picture ID...
Guess what you did was okay but I'm having trouble following the logic of not carrying a 1/87 ounce item... :confused:
2. I understand that. Also understand having to leave a dismount or two with the Brad. However, since I wasn't in Iraq I can't speak to the target sets you might meet but assuming, hopefully, that you almost never if ever fired on anything but semi-auto, nine mags x three people is 810 rounds. Allowing for 10% hits (hopefully better), that's 81 targets??? Not trying to give you a hard time nor am I disputing the need or logic; can't know without being there but I don't think I ever fired more than 100 rounds in any fight -- including one rolling 20+ hour job and one rather intense deal that was almost 8 solid hours. In the several with two to four folks, if you didn't knock 'em down or break contact * in less than a few minutes, you were toast. Just trying to gain some understanding.
3. Understand. Hopefully, no one ever got separated or was the only guy left and had to take care of himself. Or no dodo broke the rod or lost the bore brush. Or the guy with the kit didn't get evaced and we forgot to get the kit...
As we both said, every situation is different and what works well one place at one point in time might not be a good solution for the next place...
I'm not being obtuse or criticizing, just trying to learn and reconcile with significant differences from my experience.
* I don't guess a WP grenade taped to a Claymore with three seconds of fuze and an M60 Fuse Igniter could be used for breaking contact there, huh? :D
Many thanks for the time and effort.
As I suspected, it all makes sense; I just had some difficulties adapting to today (my wife and kids say that is a constant... :o ).
Say no more:
Quote:
"We didn't have them. I explained to the old lady (yes, a little old lady wearing a helmet and a plate carrier that I doubt could have stopped a BB), that I was not going to drive 45 minutes back to my patrol base to round up ID cards...[plus]it was a big deal for a Soldier to lose it..."
:eek::rolleyes:
The Ammo makes sense in your sitchyation and I do agree -- not that it matters; y'all were there and I as not. I don't second guess under that circumstance; get curious, yeah -- but no "You should have..." from me.
Same deal on the cleaning kit (except I'd have carried mine anyway ;) old habits die hard). Like the man said "Whatever works..."
Thanks again for the effort and detail. Gives me a far better picture.
Didn't know this was on the net!
rusiresources.com/equippingmilitary/Owen%20(Session%204).ppt
This was a presentation I gave at the RUSI. Upset everybody at the time. May be of some use here.
My basic contention should be obvious and one well known to the regular crowd here.
Perceptions of Mom and Pop Back Home
- if Jr. has on 400 lbs of plate armor, they feel better, it's a perception of competency/protection, essentially political IMO - may as well be humping a portable X-ray machine too.......
Lost track of this thread
Sorry for the delay in the top down building clearing answer. Many years back 10-12 years ago. I was doing some testing for the folks out of Benning. We were testing MOUT ladders, when I asked about the old grappling hook method we had been using, I got an interesting response. The Army stopped doing that, due to soldiers no longer possessing the upper body strength to pull themselves up the rope. Hence we were testing other options. Just think this was pre body armor days.
Weight is a factor of training
Roman legion humped 25 miles a day with 70 pounds of armor and kit if Vegetius is to be believed.
90% of the soldiers who got hurt wearing armor (or at least claimed it for the VA) were out of shape pogues who failed to prepare themselves physically.
a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite.
Standard kit.
Front and Rear Sapi
Basic load
2 frags
smoke
7 banger
JEMS
Camelback
Pistol (which I always say I will leave behind but never do)
IFAK
100 round saw pouch with binos/laser/pen flares/CLP/boresnake/GPS
Compass
M4/ACOG/PEC/Flashlight/Grip Pod (yes, I used it and liked it.)
Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable. I also ran on days not out of the wire.
What would you have me leave behind?