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Thread: SFC Taylor, the Fog of War and Army duplicity

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  1. #1
    Council Member Polarbear1605's Avatar
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    Default Yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    I know it maybe difficult, but if this incident's key features happened in the USA (armed threat context, ambush, new suspects arrive and response) would there be a criminal trial?
    I was going to say absolutely...but let me pull back a bit on that. If we assume SFC Taylor was a police offcer ... and he accidently shot a passing civilian there would definitely been an investigation utilizing the US Rule of Law (think the TV series "Law and Order" here)...but, and this is where I think the US military gets it wrong, this incident occured in another country where the US constitution and the Rule of Law does not apply. What does apply is the Laws of War. The law of war has very different principles ...like military necessity that basically says you should not kill civilians but we do kill civilians legally (under the laws of war) all the time with things like drone stikes in Pakistan and in any number of other ways. How do we get away with that? Answer: It was a military necessity. This soldier was operating under a ROE based on the laws of war. Normally they say something like the soldier has a right to self-defense from any threat...but the preception of that threat is left up to him. Based on what I have been hearing from Afghanistan, if a known enemy is not carrying a weapon he can not be IDed as a threat. Seems easiest enough...don't agree with it but... In my mind, the issue is did the soldier preceive the Dr as a threat because she was driving a possible VBIED...I know I would have as long as I was operating under the laws of war. If we assume a scenario where she was driving a VBIED and the soldier did not use his weapon and the car bomb kill him and the wounded, would the commanding officer then say things like..."They died for the greater good"? It is interesting when you ask a militray lawyer what is the difference between the Rule of Law and the Laws of War, they instantly say, there is no difference, they are the same thing. I don't buy that. I also believe that any law of war, combatant on combatant, death can be call murder under the rule of law. For proof of murder under the rule of law, all you need is intent and a body...and on a battle field there is usually plenty of both.
    Last edited by Polarbear1605; 06-21-2012 at 05:38 PM.
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    Council Member J Wolfsberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarbear1605 View Post
    It is interesting when you ask a military lawyer what is the difference between the Rule of Law and the Laws of War, they instantly say, there is no difference, they are the same thing.
    I not only don't buy that, I'll go further and suggest a. they should be relieved and discharged, and b. that they can't tell the difference is a stunning indictment of legal education.

    If we (meaning NATO) are in Afghanistan as international cops intervening in a domestic dispute, then I'm all for pulling out and letting the unhappy couple have at it. If we are there because the former government made the place a safe haven for terrorists, we ended the policy with the regime, and we want to ensure that we don't get a repeat, we need ROEs that reflect war time operations, and we need to get rid of fools who don't know or want to know the difference between war and civil law enforcement.
    John Wolfsberger, Jr.

    An unruffled person with some useful skills.

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    That's why the military should NOT be used for law enforcement. But that's not what's going on in this case. They were reacting to an IED, and the original posting mentions a "seasoned" Army sergeant and a "possible" bombing, yet we know the outcome in this particular instance. I still say, based on what's been reported, the Army has a case, in that he clearly violated the ROEs.

    When we did our pre-convoy briefings before going outside the wire in Kirkuk, I made it a point to tell everyone that it's common in the Iraqi culture for men to carry weapons, so that in and of itself did not pose an immediate threat to us. However, if they pointed those weapons at us, that was a threat, and we could engage. Just as when we approached overpasses, it was a standard convoy TTP for our lead and rear gun trucks to unpin their crew-served weapons and point them at whoever was walking or standing on those overpasses.

    No arguing it's a fine line between self-defense and being a KIA/WIA statistic. But again, it's hard to win the "hearts and minds" of the locals if we end up killing or wounding them unnecessarily. That's what the ROEs are supposed to help prevent.
    "We're here to preserve democracy, not practice it." from the move, Crimson Tide

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    Council Member Polarbear1605's Avatar
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    Default I agree but for different reasons

    Trying to clarify here…because I am too old and senile for combat zones to observe how this now works…
    Based on what you just said…a soldier achieves positive ID of an immediate threat when someone dressed as a civilian puts an AK-47 into their shoulder pointed in the soldier’s general direction …or is just general direction good enough for positive ID of an immediate threat under the existing ROE?
    The question now becomes what is the difference between IDing the immediate threat of an AK-47 pointed in your general direction or one driving a VBIED in your general area (ECR) in a county full of suicide car bombers?
    Next question…does the ROE, as written, specifically say, “weapon pointed at you” or does it say something more like a soldier has a right of self-defense when an “imminent threat” presents itself to the soldier? Imminent threat, in the laws of war, is described as "instant, overwhelming, and leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation” and applies to both the state and the individual. Generally speaking, I think the “weapon pointed at you part” is a commander’s “dogmatic” interpreted SOP of immediate threat when imminent threat has to be decided at the individual level under the laws of war self-defense rule.
    Tactically, this does not work (and I recognize you are agreeing) because we are trying to mix the laws of war and the rule of war and the problem at the strategic level is way worse. For example, you stated:


    Quote Originally Posted by socal1200r View Post
    When we did our pre-convoy briefings before going outside the wire in Kirkuk, I made it a point to tell everyone that it's common in the Iraqi culture for men to carry weapons, so that in and of itself did not pose an immediate threat to us.
    (no offense intended here, but when you think about it, at least in my mind, that is like saying we are going to hold mail call until moral improves.)

    Under the laws of war anyone who picks up a weapon is a combatant…even if you put it down later you are still a combatant. Once a combatant, the question then becomes, whose side you are on and under the laws of war the principle of distinction is supposed to solve that problem. The enemy, in Afghanistan and Iraq, purposely violates the principle of distinction, in order to hide in the population. The US military (and NATO) is the only organization in the whole wide world that allows citizens to turn themselves into combatants as a step to prove that the rule of law exists in a combat zone. We did this in Iraq and we are doing it in Afghanistan and it is madness. The SFC Taylor case is not only a symptom of mixing the laws or war and the rule of war, but also it demonstrates the enablement of a bad host nation leader with a bad strategic practice of “strategic legalism” (and we are doing it at the expense of our own people). Both at the tactical and strategic level, we are mounting our white horse, pulling our pistol and shooting ourselves in the foot.
    "If you want a new idea, look in an old book"

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    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarbear1605 View Post
    Under the laws of war anyone who picks up a weapon is a combatant…even if you put it down later you are still a combatant.
    That's news to me.

    I recall that either participation in combat or membership in a group that means to wage wage (militia, army, paramilitary, but not armed police, bank guards or armed secret agents) is required, too.


    Feel free to bring forward a source for your assertion.

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    Default Stars & Stripes Coverage - Article 32

    Four seconds in Afghanistan: Was it combat, or a crime?
    By Kim Murphy (from Los Angeles Times)
    Published: June 10, 2012

    Pre-trial hearing at Bamberg opens for soldier who killed Afghan civilian

    By Steven Beardsley
    Stars and Stripes
    Published: June 20, 2012

    ...
    The case centers on the military’s rules of engagement and their application in the heat of combat: Does the instinct to defend oneself trump the stated rule that a soldier must positively identify a target before shooting?

    Citing investigations following the incident, Army counsel is arguing that Taylor, who lead a route-clearing platoon with the Bamberg-based 54th Engineer Battalion in central Afghanistan, failed to follow those rules when he shot Hikmat.

    Taylor’s lawyer said the rules of engagement fail to reflect a war in which it can be hard to distinguish between civilians and combatants, or passenger cars and vehicle-borne explosive devices.

    “These charges present a threat to every U.S. servicemember who will face combat from today on,” defense attorney James Culp said in a phone interview before the hearing. ...

    Pre-trial hearing for soldier who killed Afghan civilian continues
    By Steven Beardsley
    Stars and Stripes
    Published: June 21, 2012

    Taylor’s platoon leader testified Wednesday that the rules of engagement under which the platoon trained while downrange require a “reasonable certainty” of a target’s hostile intent. Second Lt. Jeremiah Paterson agreed he would use lethal force if “51 percent” sure of the target’s hostile intent, or “pretty sure.”
    JMM emphasis added - we train as we fight and we fight as we train.

    Soldier who killed Afghan civilian says he felt threat to his men
    By Steven Beardsley
    Stars and Stripes
    Published: June 22, 2012

    BAMBERG, Germany — A platoon sergeant charged in the shooting death of an Afghan civilian said Friday he believed his platoon was seconds away from a car bomb attack when he fired his weapon.

    Sgt. 1st Class Walter Taylor is charged with negligent homicide and dereliction of duty for the shooting death of an Afghan civilian who drove with her family into the middle of a firefight and abruptly exited the car as soldiers neared.

    After three days of testimony at an Article 32 hearing as to whether Taylor correctly followed rules of engagement to identify hostile intent before shooting Dr. Aqilah Hikmat, an investigating officer will soon make a recommendation as to the disposition of charges, which could include forwarding to court-martial.

    In an unsworn statement Friday, Taylor apologized for the harm he had caused to both Hikmat’s family and relations between the U.S. and Afghanistan, but he maintained his decision was the best possible under the circumstances.

    “Based on the facts available to me at the time, I believed the person dressed in black who exited the vehicle was a threat to me and my men,” he said.

    Taylor, 31, has otherwise sat silently through three days of testimony. His soldiers, supervisors and criminal investigators have detailed the July 2011 insurgent attack in Wardak province that preceded the shooting and what ensued when the car drove up and stopped over a command wire, similar to other command wires the platoon had found connected to roadside bombs in previous missions.
    and a good comment to the last article:

    Kal_El

    Unless you have ridden in a Husky, Buffalo, RG-31, or MRAP and have conducted Route Clearance, you cannot truly understand what any Soldier experiences while out on a patrol. This team had just been hit and knew the TTP's, knew and were executing there well trained battle drills, and saw a threat (which is often a secondary device or VBIED). Soldiers are smart, and in instances like this, they react. You have literally mere seconds to react... what would you do? Risk the lives of your Soldiers or eliminate the threat?

    Politically driven, after-the-fact hearings and court martial will not bring back this Afghan woman. It will tear a platoon and company apart and ruin the life of at least one platoon sergeant.

    I have deployed seven times. The ROE has increasingly gotten longer, more confusing and less clear every time it is "revised".

    I am a combat engineer. We would plan missions, review the routes, state the 5 C's, discuss the ROE, make alternate plans, conduct battle drills, and review the threats and previous hot spots EVERY time we went on a mission. I am confident this route clearance team did all this as well.

    Maybe the Colonels reviewing this decision have some solid combat experiences and will make the right decision. If they don't, this man will face three years for doing what many would say was the right action.
    The CENTCOM ROE (PID, "reasonable certainty", etc.) is discussed in the Dealing with Haditha thread - esp. posts 131, 132, 133.

    Regards

    Mike

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    Default Elements of the Charges and Defenses

    From the 2012 Manual for Courts-Martial (CLAMO).

    Negligent Homicide

    60. Article 134—General article

    a. Text of statute.

    Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.
    85. Article 134—(Homicide, negligent)

    a. Text of statute. See paragraph 60.

    b. Elements.

    (1) That a certain person is dead;

    (2) That this death resulted from the act or failure to act of the accused;

    (3) That the killing by the accused was unlawful;

    (4) That the act or failure to act of the accused which caused the death amounted to simple negligence; and

    (5) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.

    c. Explanation.

    (1) Nature of offense. Negligent homicide is any unlawful homicide which is the result of simple negligence. An intent to kill or injure is not required.

    (2) Simple negligence. Simple negligence is the absence of due care, that is, an act or omission of a person who is under a duty to use due care which exhibits a lack of that degree of care of the safety of others which a reasonably careful person would have exercised under the same or similar circumstances. Simple negligence is a lesser degree of carelessness than culpable negligence. See paragraph 44c(2)(a).

    d. Lesser included offenses. None

    e . Maximum punishment. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.
    JMM emphasis added - see defenses below (Justification and Self-Defense).

    Negligent Dereliction of Duty

    16. Article 92—Failure to obey order or regulation

    a. Text of statute.
    Any person subject to this chapter who—
    ...
    (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

    b. Elements.
    ...
    (3) Dereliction in the performance of duties.

    (a) That the accused had certain duties;

    (b ) That the accused knew or reasonably should have known of the duties; and

    (c) That the accused was (willfully) (through neglect or culpable inefficiency) derelict in the performance of those duties.

    c. Explanation.
    ...
    (3) Dereliction in the performance of duties.

    (a) Duty. A duty may be imposed by treaty, statute, regulation, lawful order, standard operating procedure, or custom of the service.

    (b ) Knowledge. Actual knowledge of duties may be proved by circumstantial evidence. Actual knowledge need not be shown if the individual reasonably should have known of the duties. This may be demonstrated by regulations, training or operating manuals, customs of the service, academic literature or testimony, testimony of persons who have held similar or superior positions, or similar evidence.

    (c) Derelict. A person is derelict in the performance of duties when that person willfully or negligently fails to perform that person’s duties or when that person performs them in a culpably inefficient manner. “Willfully ” means intentionally. It refers to the doing of an act knowingly and purposely, specifically intending the natural and probable consequences of the act. “Negligently” means an act or omission of a person who is under a duty to use due care which exhibits a lack of that degree of care which a reasonably prudent person would have exercised under the same or similar circumstances. “Culpable inefficiency” is inefficiency for which there is no reasonable or just excuse.

    (d) Ineptitude. A person is not derelict in the performance of duties if the failure to perform those duties is caused by ineptitude rather than by willfulness, negligence, or culpable inefficiency, and may not be charged under this article, or otherwise punished. For example, a recruit who has tried earnestly during rifle training and throughout record firing is not derelict in the performance of duties if the recruit fails to qualify with the weapon.

    d. Lesser included offense. Article 80—attempts

    e. Maximum punishment.
    ...
    (3) Dereliction in the performance of duties.

    (A) Through neglect or culpable inefficiency. Forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months and confinement for 3 months.
    Defenses

    Rule 916. Defenses

    (a) In general. As used in this rule, “defenses” includes any special defense which, although not denying that the accused committed the objective acts constituting the offense charged, denies, wholly or partially, criminal responsibility for those acts.
    ...
    (b) Burden of proof.

    (1) General rule. Except as listed below in paragraphs (2), (3), and (4) [JMM: not applicable here], the prosecution shall have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defense did not exist.
    ...
    (c) Justification. A death, injury, or other act caused or done in the proper performance of a legal duty is justified and not unlawful.

    Discussion

    The duty may be imposed by statute, regulation, or order. For example, the use of force by a law enforcement officer when reasonably necessary in the proper execution of a lawful apprehension is justified because the duty to apprehend is imposed by lawful authority. Also, killing an enemy combatant in battle is justified.
    ...
    (e) Self-defense.

    (1) Homicide or assault cases involving deadly force. It is a defense to a homicide, assault involving deadly force, or battery involving deadly force that the accused:

    (A) Apprehended, on reasonable grounds, that death or grievous bodily harm was about to be inflicted wrongfully on the accused; and

    (B) Believed that the force the accused used was necessary for protection against death or grievous bodily harm.

    Discussion

    The words “involving deadly force” described the factual circumstances of the case, not specific assault offenses. If the accused is charged with simple assault, battery or any form of aggravated assault, or if simple assault, battery or any form of aggravated assault is in issue as a lesser included offense, the accused may rely on this subsection if the test specified in subsections (A) and (B) is satisfied.

    The test for the first element of self-defense is objective. Thus, the accused’s apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm must have been one which a reasonable, prudent person would have held under the circumstances. Because this test is objective, such matters as intoxication or emotional instability of the accused are irrelevant. On the other hand, such matters as the relative height, weight, and general build of the accused and the alleged victim, and the possibility of safe retreat are ordinarily among the circumstances which should be considered in determining the reasonableness of the apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm.

    The test for the second element is entirely subjective. The accused is not objectively limited to the use of reasonable force. Accordingly, such matters as the accused’s emotional control, education, and intelligence are relevant in determining the accused’s actual belief as to the force necessary to repel the attack.
    ...
    (5) Defense of another. The principles of self-defense under subsection (e)(1) through (4) of this rule apply to defense of another. It is a defense to homicide, attempted homicide, assault with intent to kill, or any assault under Article 90, 91, or 128 that the accused acted in defense of another, provided that the accused may not use more force than the person defended was lawfully entitled to use under the circumstances.

    Discussion

    The accused acts at the accused’s peril when defending another. Thus, if the accused goes to the aid of an apparent assault victim, the accused is guilty of any assault the accused commits on the apparent assailant if, unbeknownst to the accused, the apparent victim was in fact the aggressor and not entitled to use self-defense.
    Regards

    Mike

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