Non-Muslim GG Aid to Al Qaeda

[Granite_State]

I know Robb has written in the past that the increasing power of non-state/criminal forces offers Al Qaeda potential allies, hired or otherwise, in an attack on America. Thinking southern border. He's referring to MS-13, Mexican drug cartels, and U.S. gangs as well.

This thread is probably more speculative than anything, but does it make sense for mainly criminal, non-Arab enterprises to be aiding Al Qaeda and its ilk, given potential consequences?

[TROUFION]

Gang support to AQ doesn't make sense to me. They work at cross purposes, gangs intent: to get rich, gain power, live fat. Can't do those things if you destroy your bread and butter. Gangs need the wealth of America to remain for them to feed on. AQ desires the destruction of said wealth to create a power vacuum into which they can insert themselves and their archaistic way of life.

[Stevely]

Gang support to AQ doesn't make sense to me. They work at cross purposes, gangs intent: to get rich, gain power, live fat. Can't do those things if you destroy your bread and butter. Gangs need the wealth of America to remain for them to feed on. AQ desires the destruction of said wealth to create a power vacuum into which they can insert themselves and their archaistic way of life.

I don't quite agree - AQ desires the destruction of the political order; destruction of wealth is a means to an end. A weakened or hollowed out political order would suit 3rd generation gangs just fine. And even while AQ would attempt to cause great harm to the American economy, that wouldn't necessarily, or even likely, hurt the business prospects of the gangs. Their sources of wealth are different than those on Wall Street, their "business" could easily flourish in times of general economic hardship. They do already in the slums. So I think alliances of convenience are not out of the question... in the short term it could be profitable, and in the long term we're all dead, right?

[Ski]

At first, the one group I thought AQ would try and ally with would be the Colombian or Mexican drug cartels. The supply system they've established is second to none.

The more I thought about it, the less sense it made. The cartels are there to make money primarily. If AQ was found to be involved with them, I'm certain we'd have started hitting the drug lords infrastructure and personnel whenever possible. Then the drug cartels would have an even worse persona than they already do, and it would likely destroy their business.

[Granite_State]

At first, the one group I thought AQ would try and ally with would be the Colombian or Mexican drug cartels. The supply system they've established is second to none.

The more I thought about it, the less sense it made. The cartels are there to make money primarily. If AQ was found to be involved with them, I'm certain we'd have started hitting the drug lords infrastructure and personnel whenever possible. Then the drug cartels would have an even worse persona than they already do, and it would likely destroy their business.

That's my problem with the idea as well. That assuming we can figure out which gang or cartel aided Islamist terrorists, we would come down on them like a hammer. Just seems like you'd have to be an incredibly short-sighted criminal to aid America's major enemy.

[TROUFION]

Perhaps I should have used the coloquial 'phat'. I never stated 'happily'. From my view, opinion, the desire to get rich and live phat doesn't mean live long. It is a desire to live in a decidedly decadent style if even for a short time. The style of living is at odds with the religious extremist viewpoint, it is what AQ-UBL was rising up against in his own country. Of course I understand the 'enemy of my enemy' concept and the idea that short sighted monetary gains can drive some cooperation. But it would seem a stretch for religious puritan fanatics to side with irreverant drug running self-indulgers. However, The pursuit of power has made stranger bedfellows.

[MaxL]

They work at cross purposes, gangs intent: to get rich, gain power, live fat. Can't do those things if you destroy your bread and butter.

I'm unconvinced of this point. That American 'gangsta' rappers remain immersed in a culture that not infrequently kills them after they've become fairly rich suggests their goal is not, in fact, merely to become rich and live a fat, happy life. If it were, they'd leave the 'game' after they made a few million. It's not as though rich men who aren't gangsters have a difficult time acquiring the sort of perqs the rappers enjoy.

I suspect, though cannot prove, that the rappers are fairly representative of the average gangster in this regard.

Sociology tells us that the socialization process is vital to the formation of identity. If one grows up in a gang-infested area, it stands to reason that the values one internalizes will not, by and large, be typical of 'mainstream' western society.

To reinforce Stevely's point, that certain gangs are classified as national security threats in Latin American countries suggests that they're not particularly concerned with preserving the integrity of their 'host' nations.

Additionally, this paper suggests linkages--some actual, most theoretical--between gangs and terrorism (start with page 9 for the relevant bits).

[slapout9]

Ding, Ding, Ding, I think we have a winner folks at least closer to my experience anyway. Gangs and Criminals in general do not operate under the same logic as normal people.

I'm unconvinced of this point. That American 'gangsta' rappers remain immersed in a culture that not infrequently kills them after they've become fairly rich suggests their goal is not, in fact, merely to become rich and live a fat, happy life. If it were, they'd leave the 'game' after they made a few million. It's not as though rich men who aren't gangsters have a difficult time acquiring the sort of perqs the rappers enjoy.

I suspect, though cannot prove, that the rappers are fairly representative of the average gangster in this regard.

Sociology tells us that the socialization process is vital to the formation of identity. If one grows up in a gang-infested area, it stands to reason that the values one internalizes will not, by and large, be typical of 'mainstream' western society.

To reinforce Stevely's point, that certain gangs are classified as national security threats in Latin American countries suggests that they're not particularly concerned with preserving the integrity of their 'host' nations.

Additionally, this paper suggests linkages--some actual, most theoretical--between gangs and terrorism (start with page 9 for the relevant bits).

[marct]

I know a few people who have done fieldwork with a variety of gangs and, from what they have told me, gangs seem to be organized along an analog of tribal lines complete with the ritual aspects. I don't have much difficulty in seeing them operating with AQ, at least in some areas, although I doubt that they would be involved with anything that would destroy their turf.