Ouch. Which was also my reaction when the Nigerian characters initially appeared in District 9.Originally Posted by JMA
Sorry last night was an early one, took a little blue pill and ... (well you know
The general view from South Africa is that the Nigerians here are parasites (call it aggressive businessmen if you like). They are mainly involved in the sex and drug industries and continue to bribe their way to keep in 'business' and out of jail. Very, very bad reputation.
On the other hand the Somalis who open small shops attract jealousy as they are astute, offer credit to locals and soon dominate the market.
My personal opinion is that the test comes when the world sees whether Nigerians can create wealth (in a broad sense) rather than buy-and-sell or wheel-and-deal with the products of other peoples labour.
With the current level of corruption in Nigeria only a fool will invest there. Saved by oil. Give it 50 years then maybe.
Last edited by JMA; 11-17-2011 at 05:51 PM.
Ouch. Which was also my reaction when the Nigerian characters initially appeared in District 9.
If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)
It is important to understand what the Nigerian Army is. (see: here)
A quote in a 1984 study, Major Michael Stafford of the US Marine Corps said:
Has anything changed since then? Don't think so. But by all means rather use them as proxies as required (like Kenya is now being used in Somalia) than try to deploy US troops into West Africa (then turn a blind eye when the reports of human rights abuse come flowing in)."Inexperienced, poorly trained and ineptly led soldiers manifested their lack of professionalism and indiscipline by massacres of innocent civilians and a failure to effectively execute infantry tactics."
That's the general view of the majority. Hard to argue against that based on the hard evidence.
NOt sure where to go with this other than agree. The Africans are far tougher on each other, and, obviously know each other far better than we would hope to.
I won't even pretend to know what they think of the DRC.
If you want to blend in, take the bus
JMA,
Thanks... Not exactly what I thought, but then, we are no longer permitted to use Google here for some strange reason
Tough crowd !
I have to admit that all my dead uncle emails have suddenly stopped, which, makes me wonder what is in store for the rest of us.
Sorry last night was an early one, took a little blue pill and ... (well you know
The general view from South Africa is that the Nigerians here are parasites (call it aggressive businessmen if you like). They are mainly involved in the sex and drug industries and continue to bribe their way to keep in 'business' and out of jail. Very, very bad reputation.
On the other hand the Somalis who open small shops attract jealousy as they are astute, offer credit to locals and soon dominate the market.
My personal opinion is that the test comes when the world sees whether Nigerians can create wealth (in a broad sense) rather than buy-and-sell or wheel-and-deal with the products of other peoples labour.
With the current level of corruption in Nigeria only a fool will invest there. Saved by oil. Give it 50 years then maybe.
If you want to blend in, take the bus
Matching investors with African who have new product ideas is a great concept, but it points to a deeper problem - the absence of a fit for purpose banking system in most African nations. Think about it, why don't banks in Nigeria and Kenya do that sort of thing? Some of the reasons include the absence of proper land registration, insufficient understanding of property rights etc., so the risks tend to be high.I have seen several sites ( I will look them up if you wish) that are popping up trying to match investors with Africans who have new product ideas, products that address everyday needs in Africa. I do not think this is the only answer, but based on my experience I do not see any hope in granting funds to economic kingpins nor government officials. In my opinion, it is the opinion of a non-African, that Africa needs some young entrepreneurs. As you say, one would have to have a tolerance for risk. That is exactly what Joint Venture angels are used to.
Matching investors to young entrepreneurs is great, but unless you are doing charity, the risk profile is enough to scare most serious investors.
For example, I worked as a manager at KPMG and I found it quite difficult to obtain consumer loans and even at that I was offered 21% interest rate. African governments are quite simply either unwilling or incapable of creating conditions that lower the cost of borrowing.
So how do we raise money? We tend to use the "esusu" system. We form a group and everyone pools resources on a monthly basis. Every month its someone's turn to benefit from the common pot, you can easily police bad behaviour, because if someone refuses to play along it affects everyone else. I think a similar system could work (enabled by technology) because it mitigates risk better than traditional venture capital model. I.e. you identify a group of young entrepreneurs, give them seed money and get them to form an "esusu" system - entrepreneur B's funding is dependent on how compliant entrepreneur A is to the terms of the initial agreement and so on.
However, the most common source of funding is from family or what we call the "freedom" system. The "freedom system" works like this; you work as an apprentice for a trader, mechanic, carpenter etc. At the end of your apprenticeship he gives you a lump sum to start your own business called your "freedom". You both have the skills, the contacts and some money to get going.
In closing, one of the reasons why many initiatives from the development/NGO community fail is because they don't tend to consult the locals (no matter how well educated they are) when designing new products or concepts.
I was in South Africa twice last year, and while we don't have a very good reputation down South, I saw a good number of Nigerian owned businesses (from restaurants to mechanic workshops etc). I was also asked by virtually every black South African I met about their favourite Nollywood actor/actress.Sorry last night was an early one, took a little blue pill and ... (well you know
The general view from South Africa is that the Nigerians here are parasites (call it aggressive businessmen if you like). They are mainly involved in the sex and drug industries and continue to bribe their way to keep in 'business' and out of jail. Very, very bad reputation.
On the other hand the Somalis who open small shops attract jealousy as they are astute, offer credit to locals and soon dominate the market.
My personal opinion is that the test comes when the world sees whether Nigerians can create wealth (in a broad sense) rather than buy-and-sell or wheel-and-deal with the products of other peoples labour.
With the current level of corruption in Nigeria only a fool will invest there. Saved by oil. Give it 50 years then maybe.
Both Nigerians and Somalians attract jealousy and violence from black South Africans.
It also goes both ways. We think black South Africans are violent, lazy and unambitious (a view shared by many white South Africans). You are less likely to be robbed in broad daylight as a foreigner in Lagos than at Joburg.
I also got a sense that white South Africans were afraid for their future (a white colleague told me about how her uncle was robbed and killed on the road). They are uncomfortable with Jacob Zuma, but are scared of Julius Malema.
Anyone who doubts the ability of Nigerians to create wealth has probably never been to Aba, Onitsha or Nnewi (where most of our plastics are made). Anyway, since most of you spend time in heavily fortified deluxe compounds in Lekki, V/Island in Ikoyi, you wont see that. The Oil and Gas business in Nigeria only employs about 0.15% of Nigeria's workforce, who do you think employs the rest?
Sadly, the days of Western dominated FDI in Africa are are ending. The business community knows that investment opportunities abound in SSA. (McKinsey opened an office in Lagos ) and KFC is doing just fine here. However, it is the Chinese and Indians who are making good money from doing business with the man on the street. ($100 petrol generators, $300 motorcycles).
Do you know why Western firms missed out on investing in Nigeria's booming telecom market? It is because their CEOs thought like you. The market is dominated by the Indians and the South Africans and the Chinese (Huawei) are gaining ground in the telecom infrastructure side.
I think we should get back to the topic of this thread.
Nigeria rules, SWC learns
I know the original thread title was / is 'Nigeria & Islam: terrorism plus', but we have meandered to our gain IMHO. SWC is not just a discussion forum, it also seeks insight and understanding. Some would call this Human Terrain plus.
The thread has helped provide context for the perceived threat from Boko Haram.
davidbfpo
AFRICOM taps into some real fears. You cannot wish away five hundred years of colonisation and slavery. When I was a student every undergraduate was required to read How the West Underdeveloped Africa by Walter Rodney and pass a course based on that book to graduate. (I suspect that the same conditions applied at many other universities).Just as politicians use the AFRICOM bogeyman to distract attention from their own inadequacies, might they not also try to deflect the anger of those unemployed youths onto the Chinese, rather than accepting and addressing their own responsibility for the problem? It sounds like a situation ripe for exploitation and with an easy scapegoat at hand.
I don't know what the situation is like today, but I didn't leave university too long ago (I was still there in the late nineties). We university graduates tend to be opinion-shapers.
Then you have the prospect of every word uttered in support of Israel by American politicians being twisted and manipulated by opinion-shapers in the Muslim parts of Northern Nigeria. There have been demonstrations and riots in support of the Palestinians, against the first and second Gulf Wars and even against the American invasion of Afghanistan.
All this, however, is countered by the positive examples of Bill Gates, American involvement in health care delivery, support for democracy, impressions from the diaspora and the reputation of American companies as being the best employers. It is important to note that none of the positive perceptions of the United States in Africa have anything to do with the US military.
Also note that there have been very few overt positive examples of US military intervention in Africa or Sub-Saharan Africa. The last example of US military intervention was Libya, but Libya plays better with the Arab World than with Sub-Saharan Africa. For all his quirks, Gaddafi was genuinely popular in Black Africa (especially in areas that had prolonged liberation struggles). He was also not as racist as the typical Arab.
The untold story of the Libyan revolution is the unfair targeting / war crimes committed against black Libyans / Sub-Saharan Africans by the Western-backed rebels. It doesn't get much airtime in the West, but it plays quite badly in SS Africa.
If the US succeeds in capturing Joseph Kony, then it will create favourable ratings for the US military among the Christian population of East Africa. It will have very little impact elsewhere, as I said in earlier posts, Africa is huge. And from Nigeria, Uganda could as well be on another planet.
(NB: the flow of information, cultural links and trade between African nations should be studied. e.g. If Nigerian movies are popular in Uganda, what are they about? if Nigerian businessmen are active in South Africa and West Africa what are they selling? If Nigerian evangelical pastors are admired in Cameroon, what message are they preaching? This information will be useful in understanding how the modern African mind is being shaped).
We also have some history with the Chinese. Before the Chinese became a major economic player, they were enthusiastic supporters of liberation movements. They also are more at our level - i.e: my Chinese boss / colleague may be an SOB, but he is also less likely to earn ten times my salary for doing a similar job, more likely to live, shop and use the same mode of transportation as I do - and since he is at a similar social level, there are more opportunities for interaction.
There are Chinese who tend to seclude themselves from the locals, but as they gain familiarity with Africa, the tendency is for them to interact more with the people. On the other hand, Westerners are retreating back more into their shells (albeit for understandable reasons - security).
So with the West, there is an element of jealousy (you are so much richer), while with the Chinese, it tends to be hatred (depends on the company, Huawei is seen as a great place to work). (I studied abroad and have been quite well-paid, so that doesn't apply to me, but applies to many other people).
You've neatly encapsulated two big US problems...
It has been my observation that is true in most of the rest of the world. I have also noted that the relative dislike of the over large, over wealthy US while subject to many variables peaked IMO in the late 1968 - early 1970 period over Viet Nam then began to decline only to again climb as the Goldwater-Nichols took hold and the US Armed Forces assumed worldwide responibilities under the Geographic Commands -- and as US Aid, USIS the PEACE Corps and the Department of State all were eclipsed by the military ascendance. Major and deleterious unintended consequence.Having tried to live, work and spend like a native in two foreign nations on the rationale that US perceived excess annoyed the locals, I can tell you it's hard to do -- the system, the US System, doesn't like that. You make others look bad and that causes dissension. The system likes -- seeks -- tranquility...They also are more at our level - i.e: my Chinese boss / colleague may be an SOB, but he is also less likely to earn ten times my salary for doing a similar job, more likely to live, shop and use the same mode of transportation as I do - and since he is at a similar social level, there are more opportunities for interaction.
Reactions of locals were varied and interesting -- suffice to say, it isn't easy to blend.
The flip side is that if you put most US salary in escrow pending return to CONUS and paid US civilian or military employes at local rate, you'd likely get few takers for overseas jobs. I do not see any easy solution to that problem...I suspect security is a big but far from the only reason for that withdrawal into little golden ghettos. Whatever the cause, it's a part of the salary / blending problem and we Americans do not do it well. Neither did the British, really but then, they didn't expect to be 'liked.'There are Chinese who tend to seclude themselves from the locals, but as they gain familiarity with Africa, the tendency is for them to interact more with the people. On the other hand, Westerners are retreating back more into their shells (albeit for understandable reasons - security).
I perceive a little, open South African - Nigerian competition.
Those observations dovetail with mine. There are a series of handbooks out called "Culture Shock." Much of these handbooks have excerpts from the old Area Handbooks that the now defunct U.S. Government Printing Office used to publish. They described overseas posted personnel generally into three groups (1) The Hermits, (2) The Natives, (3) The Cosmopolitans. Out of the three, The Natives were frowned upon the most by their expat peers. The same types exist within corporate expatriate personnel.
I think we are on track with this discussion. I agree with you that the major contributing factor to the wide-spread support of Boko Haram is the economic environment of the masses in the country. The solution to this problem is not a military one, military from within Nigeria or from the outside. The answer, a long term one at that, is helping the average Nigerian enjoy a better standard of living.
With the huge population base and good infrastructure (especially when comparing it to other African countries) there is every reason to believe that good minds, good hearts, and some money will meet and shape a future that is not so fertile for Boko Haram.
In retrospect, I agree with you.I think we are on track with this discussion. I agree with you that the major contributing factor to the wide-spread support of Boko Haram is the economic environment of the masses in the country. The solution to this problem is not a military one, military from within Nigeria or from the outside. The answer, a long term one at that, is helping the average Nigerian enjoy a better standard of living.
With the huge population base and good infrastructure (especially when comparing it to other African countries) there is every reason to believe that good minds, good hearts, and some money will meet and shape a future that is not so fertile for Boko Haram.
Off topic? Yes! But interesting and insighful? Hopefully!
My step-father was for a short time the personal physician to a prince in a Kingdom-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named. After eight weeks of not seeing his patient he was bored silly with compound life and carefully and politely resigned his position. But most of the other residents of the compound loved it there. These sorts of situations lead me to believe that a great many American ex-pats are exchanging a life of struggling to not miss a mortgage payment for a life of relative material comfort and the chance to “be somebody” on the local scene in a way they would never be in the States (*cough* missionaries *cough*). The escrow arrangement would take such folks—who do America’s image abroad no good—out of the selection pool if nothing else. But I do acknowledge that that group seems to make up such a large portion of the USpora that in doing so it might prove impossible to fill all the necessary slots.
Last edited by ganulv; 11-17-2011 at 09:20 PM.
If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)
This could be a whole new topic. I was at a compound in a Kingdom-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named just last year. Talk about posh living. If you do a GoogleMap flyover the only green you will see is the golf course in the compound, which is now even lit at night. Not only that, when the kids reach high school you get to ship them off to boarding school
Last edited by Misifus; 11-17-2011 at 09:39 PM.
Another take on that issue. Twenty years ago, it was easier to interact with expatriates than it is today (I am talking from my own experience). The US embassy wasn't the forbidding fortress-like structure that we see today.I suspect security is a big but far from the only reason for that withdrawal into little golden ghettos. Whatever the cause, it's a part of the salary / blending problem and we Americans do not do it well. Neither did the British, really but then, they didn't expect to be 'liked.'
The main issue is how to manage the economic disparity and the need for security with the perception.
It is so in your face! It might become dangerous (both for the expats and their employers).
In Lagos traffic, you notice expatriates being chauffeur driven in brand new cars coming from the best parts of town. You also see convoys of armed policemen escorting mid-level employees of Oil and Gas companies to the airport.
The Chinese tend to go about their business less obtrusively. I once lived near a Huawei guest house and I observed how Huawei engineers go to work (four per car - second hand 1998 model Toyota Camry) and live (several to a flat).
Well, even your diplomats are hermits now. You stand the risk of cementing the impression that Americans are rich, soft, risk-averse and aloof. That you only venture out from the safety of their comfort zones when you have overwhelming military force, that you are not real men (this is the line the Islamic fundamentalists push).Those observations dovetail with mine. There are a series of handbooks out called "Culture Shock." Much of these handbooks have excerpts from the old Area Handbooks that the now defunct U.S. Government Printing Office used to publish. They described overseas posted personnel generally into three groups (1) The Hermits, (2) The Natives, (3) The Cosmopolitans. Out of the three, The Natives were frowned upon the most by their expat peers. The same types exist within corporate expatriate personnel.
This article from the VOA, confirms my observations (it mentions that the Chinese need to interact more, but I have Chinese neighbours and we sometimes play soccer together).
Source: http://www.voanews.com/english/news/...tes-Grows.htmlBut according to Brautigam, China’s nationals working in Africa have nevertheless gained more respect on the continent because of their simple way of living. She uses a practical example she witnessed in the recent past to give credence to her point of view.
.....................................
“The United States…had eight experts and they had built ranch-style houses in a little subdivision, with street lights and sidewalks, and everything the way it would be in Texas or someplace like that!” Brautigam laughs.
While Western donors tend to spend a lot of their aid funds on luxurious housing and high salaries for their experts, and anything that’ll provide comfort for their expatriate staff in the host country, the Chinese prefer to spend the money on the actual aid projects, she says.
“These (types of behavior) have implications in terms of the bang for the buck. If you’re building all those ranch-style houses, and flying in containers of food, your aid money doesn’t go as far,” Brautigam quips.
Ndubisi Obiorah, the Executive Director of Nigeria’s Centre for Law and Social Action, says one of the major reasons for China’s popularity amongst African political and business leaders is the country’s provision of expatriates who provide cheaper expertise to the continent.
In Nigeria, he says, the Chinese are perceived as being “better able to transfer technology to Nigerian employees than Western expatriates.”
In Obiorah’s experience, China is popular amongst businesspeople in Africa because of a simple reason: Money.
“Africans associate the Chinese with profits,” says Obiorah.
Kurlantzick says his research, which has focused upon perceptions of China in Africa, shows that the Chinese remain essentially popular on the continent, despite negative publicity such as the flood of cheap Chinese labor and goods into Africa. He says Africans have a “very favorable impression” of China largely because of the country’s eagerness to build essential infrastructure, such as roads, across the continent, which they consider essential to their attempts to escape from poverty.
As the "War on Terror" progresses and you further retreat behind your security barriers, meaningful interaction with the locals becomes increasingly difficult. I just don't know how you are going to win this battle against the Chinese and Indians.
The Chinese are already taunting some Western NGO workers by asking them how committed they are to eradicating poverty when they live in luxury And this is playing badly with the proportion of the population who (a) don't see the benefits of a lot of the aid (Bill Gates is an exception) and (b) think that aid is a scam to enrich corrupt politicians.
Perception!
Last edited by davidbfpo; 11-17-2011 at 11:01 PM. Reason: Fix bold italics
US Embassy people are strange, everywhere. The US Embassy here is by far the largest foreign mission in the country, but the staff are virtually invisible, you never see or meet them anywhere. There's a rumour that on the rare occasions when they leave their secure areas they adopt an elaborate system of camouflage, wearing maple-leaf t-shirts and saying "eh" a lot.
The whole expat phenomenon is always strange, though the manner in which it's strange varies a lot from place to place. It sounds like the scene there is dominated by the embassies and the oil & gas crowd, both of which are notorious for pampering and overprotecting expat staff.
Are we in a battle with the Chinese and Indians? I don't see that we are, or that we need to be. I also don't think spending more money or sending more people would necessarily increase influence or accomplish anything, especially if there's no clear idea of what they're meant to accomplish or how.
Those perceptions prevail in many places. I'm sure you've heard the saying that foreign aid is poor people in rich countries sending money to rich people in poor countries.
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”
H.L. Mencken
Not that you need validation from me, but your observations are correct.
The employees are shuttled to the airport on a small bus that has curtains on it. They are instructed to not open the curtains and look outside. Inside the bus there is one or two armed guards. There is also a lead armed vehicle and an armed chase vehicles. These vehicles have sirens and whoopee lights on them. They bust there way through the Lagos traffic. I have seen the security guards on these vehicles hit other cars with their billy clubs if those cars are in the way while crawling through traffic. I have also seen the police do this in just directing normal traffic.
This is the correct perception, it is the reality. There has been much pussification of the American male, though the Western European man is even more girl-like. Much of this has even crept into our military.Well, even your diplomats are hermits now. You stand the risk of cementing the impression that Americans are rich, soft, risk-averse and aloof. That you only venture out from the safety of their comfort zones when you have overwhelming military force, that you are not real men (this is the line the Islamic fundamentalists push).
We are not. The capitulation is about complete.I just don't know how you are going to win this battle against the Chinese and Indians.
My first trip to provide training to Nigerians was for a US oil company. They lodged me at the Moorhouse Ikoyi. Pretty nice hotel by Nigerian standards. On the first day of training they had a driver shuttle me back and forth between the hotel and the office in a nice car. The ride took forever going through traffic. Crossing the bridge onto Victoria took forever. The second day I grabbed a motorcycle taxi and was there in about 10 minutes. I was scolded by this particular customer for not using the provided driver and car. I was told if I could not abide by their security rules I would not be invited back for further work.
Last edited by Misifus; 11-18-2011 at 12:33 AM.
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