Haiti (Catch all)

[davidbfpo]

I've not looked far for imagery of the disaster, but this website has a series: http://cryptome.org/info/haiti-quake/haiti-quake-01.htm and three other sets of photos.

What I did note was the aerial imagery of residential areas, which suggests homes were intact; others taken from the ground suggest homes have collapsed downwards onto the ground floor.

Anyone able to interpret better than this "armchair"? Calling Entropy!

[Xivvx]

While not technically being a war per se, the way I see this shaping up at the moment is that the current humanitarian disaster in Hati is going to provide a springboard for Canada to further justify pulling out of Afghanistan in 2011 and return to "peacekeeping" rather than warfighting.

It is my belief that the Canadian public is sick of the war, wants to be out of it and helping Haiti might seem a better alternative mission for us to be engaged in. With the deployment of 1000 additional troops from Valcartier, the 500 on the ships, and the 200 man DART we have a commitment of 1700 personnel going to Haiti, if you count government workers in addition to this, our commitment approaches 2000. We have a little less than our current commitment in Afghanistan in Haiti to put it in focus.

I am interested in getting others thoughts regarding this, Will Haiti be Canada's new Afghanistan?

Edit: Fixed the title

[John T. Fishel]

The former US Speaker of the House said that many years ago and it clearly applies to Canada's role in Haiti, not only during this humanitarian disaster, but in the crises of 1994 and 2004. As Glen Milne argues in his chapter in my edited book, Capacity Building for Peacekeeping: The Case of Haiti (pp. 53, 56) the Haitian - Canadian population of Montreal is critical to any referendum on the status of Quebec w/in the Canadian confederation. The last referendum was won by pro-Canada forces by less than 1% of the vote - much of the margin of victory provided by Haitian-Canadians.

Cheers

JohnT

[Vahid]

Although I find the possibility of withdrawing Canadian troops from Afghanistan in the foreseeable future to be somewhat foolhardy, I concur that the impending Canadian mission in Haiti has rekindled the spirit of Canadian Humanitarian Mission abroad that was long presumed to have faded into oblivion (at least under the auspicies of Harper's government). Whilst the support for the Afghan mission was not socially rooted (perhaps due to the controversy surrounding it), the Haitian mission bears an intense social support (propped by the enormity of the crisis along with the stupendous media campaign launched by different outlets in Canada). Moreover, what is also instructive is the fact that Québec society has had well-established cultural links with that of Haiti (It's indubitable that language and religion have played a crucial role in reinforcing these links whereas in the case of Afghanistan, such links were absent). Lysiane Gagnon, a Globe and Mail columnist, has very cogently expatiated on this link:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1433167/

[marct]

While not technically being a war per se, the way I see this shaping up at the moment is that the current humanitarian disaster in Hati is going to provide a springboard for Canada to further justify pulling out of Afghanistan in 2011 and return to "peacekeeping" rather than warfighting.

Although I find the possibility of withdrawing Canadian troops from Afghanistan in the foreseeable future to be somewhat foolhardy, I concur that the impending Canadian mission in Haiti has rekindled the spirit of Canadian Humanitarian Mission abroad that was long presumed to have faded into oblivion (at least under the auspicies of Harper's government). Whilst the support for the Afghan mission was not socially rooted (perhaps due to the controversy surrounding it), the Haitian mission bears an intense social support (propped by the enormity of the crisis along with the stupendous media campaign launched by different outlets in Canada).

I'm not sure that we needed a justification to pull out of Afghanistan, per se. And, while we may be pulling out our active combat component, the door is still open for FID, SFA, police training, etc. which we have been doing a fair amount of.

Having said that, I have no doubt that the Haiti "crisis" will be used as a justification to "demand" a return to our "traditional" role as peacekeepers (some people have no knowledge of Canadian history ). BTW, the reason why I put crisis in quotation marks is simple: when has Haiti not been in a crisis situation? In my cynical and jaded moments, I have to wonder if the current response isn't just another example of reinforcing the dependence of Haiti on the rest of the world while, at the same time, providing "us" with an opportunity to feel good about ourselves: a post-Westphalian form of "Save the Children", complete with the full range of Cosmo propaganda and emotional blackmail.

[tequila]

In my cynical and jaded moments, I have to wonder if the current response isn't just another example of reinforcing the dependence of Haiti on the rest of the world while, at the same time, providing "us" with an opportunity to feel good about ourselves: a post-Westphalian form of "Save the Children", complete with the full range of Cosmo propaganda and emotional blackmail.

Hmmm ... what would a proper response be, sans "Cosmo propaganda and emotional blackmail"? Also, what is Cosmo propaganda?

[marct]

Travel weekly just posted a list of members of the Travel Industry and what they are doing to help. The full list is available here. I find the range of activities interesting going from what appears to be fairly pure altruism (e.g. El Al), through to what appears to be a pure "feel good" promo (e.g. the Maho Group).

[Xivvx]

As to the broader issue of Afghanistan--we're pulling our combat forces out of Afghanistan, and that decision was pretty much set in stone long before the Haiti crisis.

I agree completely, there has been a firm commitment to pull out combat troops in 2011, but I'm seeing this as setting up the next long term mission for us.

[davidbfpo]

Added by a Moderator

Rex,

Asked:

Perhaps a mod might want to close the thread before someone gets the impression that the Small Wars Journal has become the Mass Lynching Journal?

I have my doubts about where this thread is going, so in due course I will remove some of the recent posts to another, new thread and keep this thread on Haiti & Canada. The new thread is called 'Harsh in Haiti: a light discussion': http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=9562

Rightly Rex observes the harshness of some posts may affect SWJ's standing, so future threads will be closely watched for their moderation.

[davidbfpo]

As Glen Milne argues in his chapter in my edited book, Capacity Building for Peacekeeping: The Case of Haiti (pp. 53, 56) the Haitian - Canadian population of Montreal is critical to any referendum on the status of Quebec within the Canadian confederation. The last referendum was won by pro-Canada forces by less than 1% of the vote - much of the margin of victory provided by Haitian-Canadians.

Cheers

JohnT

John,

An interesting quirk in Canadian and international politics - which takes me back to raising the 'Kith & Kin' issue on this thread: http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=8829

[davidbfpo]

Moderators Note

Created to house some recent postings on another thread, which discussed the Haiti-Canada linkage: http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=9534

This thread was created as some have suggested that a solution to the problems of Haiti is to be harsh.

Posts here will be moderated if their tone verges on what can be perceived inside and outside SWC as advocating lynching (taken from Rex).

[Rex Brynen]

Opening Thread explanation:

Moderators Note

Created to house some recent postings on another thread, which discussed the Haiti-Canada linkage: http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=9534

This thread was created as some have suggested that a solution to the problems of Haiti is to be harsh.

Posts here will be moderated if their tone verges on what can be perceived inside and outside SWC as advocating lynching (taken from Rex).

Back to the thread below

In my cynical and jaded moments, I have to wonder if the current response isn't just another example of reinforcing the dependence of Haiti on the rest of the world while, at the same time, providing "us" with an opportunity to feel good about ourselves: a post-Westphalian form of "Save the Children", complete with the full range of Cosmo propaganda and emotional blackmail.

Perhaps a little too cynical, Marc? It is not as if Haiti has any other options at the moment, and periodic outbreaks of Western altruism are probably better than no altruism at all.

The Haiti crisis does raise some real question about the limits of our understanding and capacity to transform highly unequal, corrupt, and poorly governed social and political systems into something that is more just and better governed. For all the "we must leave Haiti better off than before" rhetoric (a sentiment that I fully agree with), I'm not sure we've yet adequately examined why we've failed in the past, and how (and the extent to which) we can do better in the future.

As to the broader issue of Afghanistan--we're pulling our combat forces out of Afghanistan, and that decision was pretty much set in stone long before the Haiti crisis.

[John T. Fishel]

issues since 1994, I was especially pessimistic about the capability of Haiti and the will of the international community to do what was needed to develop both a Haitian state and nation. (I said so several times in print) In the present emergency, however, I am beginning to wonder about my previous judgment. First, the Haitian people have responded far better than I expected to the emergency based on my experience on the ground in 1995 and research of the 2004 crisis. Second, I have seen some very positive things coming out of one of the important health NGOs involved in the relief effort. Third, former Pres Bill Clinton has spoken of the economic and governance strides that Haiti was making before the earthquake hit. Finally, the skills and responses of the Haitian diaspora give rise to some hope. So, if the international community maintains its will, there may be reason to be cautiously optimistic about Haiti's mid-range future.

Cheers

JohnT

[Stan]

issues since 1994, I was especially pessimistic about the capability of Haiti and the will of the international community to do what was needed to develop both a Haitian state and nation. (I said so several times in print) In the present emergency, however, I am beginning to wonder about my previous judgment. First, the Haitian people have responded far better than I expected to the emergency based on my experience on the ground in 1995 and research of the 2004 crisis. Second, I have seen some very positive things coming out of one of the important health NGOs involved in the relief effort. Third, former Pres Bill Clinton has spoken of the economic and governance strides that Haiti was making before the earthquake hit. Finally, the skills and responses of the Haitian diaspora give rise to some hope. So, if the international community maintains its will, there may be reason to be cautiously optimistic about Haiti's mid-range future.

Cheers

JohnT

Hey John,
I decided to remain pessimistic following our relief team's last this morning.

We managed to save 21 today despite the local resistance and the cops going home at 1630. A shame the looters, that keep trying to steal our medical supplies, don't quit at five sharp too!

Relatively speaking this reminds me of a money hole in Africa that just never manages to get full and we move on. It never really mattered that some cataclysmic event occurred, the end was the same decades later.

Just exactly how did this become a Canadian problem?

[John T. Fishel]

I hope you're wrong! Unfortunately, you are probably right and I will have to return to my normal pessimistic state.

JohnT

[marct]

Hi Rex,

Perhaps a little too cynical, Marc? It is not as if Haiti has any other options at the moment, and periodic outbreaks of Western altruism are probably better than no altruism at all.

Probably, but I'm in that sort of mood right now . Is it even altruism I have to ask myself? Probably, at least on the part of most people - I'm just in a very weird headspace right now...

The Haiti crisis does raise some real question about the limits of our understanding and capacity to transform highly unequal, corrupt, and poorly governed social and political systems into something that is more just and better governed. For all the "we must leave Haiti better off than before" rhetoric (a sentiment that I fully agree with), I'm not sure we've yet adequately examined why we've failed in the past, and how (and the extent to which) we can do better in the future.

Agreed which, in part, is a (miniscule) part of where my cynicism comes from. We are, however, engaged in a Peacock Effect type of mission (cf. Dawkins, The God Delusion, p.163); if we actually solved the problem, "we" would just have to create another opportunity to display our altruism.

As to the broader issue of Afghanistan--we're pulling our combat forces out of Afghanistan, and that decision was pretty much set in stone long before the Haiti crisis.

Yup, I totally agree, which is why I said we don't "need" Haiti as a justification. Having said that, I'm sure that Jack Layton will, however, use it as a justification for pushing us to get out of combat missions entirely .

[Tom Kratman]

Hmmm ... what would a proper response be, sans "Cosmo propaganda and emotional blackmail"? Also, what is Cosmo propaganda?

"Cosmo," rather "Kosmo," was a term I coined for A Desert Called Peace as a substitute for "Tranzi." They're essentially the same. I rather had to coin a new term because I'd used "Tranzi" in the form of the "Tranzitree," a genetically engineered fruit-bearing tree, the fruit of which is green on the outside, red on the inside, and intensely poisonous but only to intelligent life. Frankly, I think cosmopolitan progressive is slightly more accurate than transnational progressive.

Their propaganda might range from the memetic attack on all things western in the movie Avatar to a still shot of a boated-bellied and starving African child covered by flies to the silly notion that when you sign up to pay 54 cents a day to feed, clothe, and educate Maritza, the starving Guatamalan child, that your money is actually doing that, rather than paying for first class flights to five star resorts for Tranzi, or Kosmo, conferences to discuss the plight of migrant widget pickers in Eastern West ####istan. Or maybe it was Western East ####istan; these conferences tend to be largely interchangeable and _completely_ useless.

[Tom Kratman]

Perhaps a little too cynical, Marc? It is not as if Haiti has any other options at the moment, and periodic outbreaks of Western altruism are probably better than no altruism at all.

The Haiti crisis does raise some real question about the limits of our understanding and capacity to transform highly unequal, corrupt, and poorly governed social and political systems into something that is more just and better governed. For all the "we must leave Haiti better off than before" rhetoric (a sentiment that I fully agree with), I'm not sure we've yet adequately examined why we've failed in the past, and how (and the extent to which) we can do better in the future.

As to the broader issue of Afghanistan--we're pulling our combat forces out of Afghanistan, and that decision was pretty much set in stone long before the Haiti crisis.

What question? We have essentially no ability to do so with the means we are willing to use.

[Tom Kratman]

Hey, John, I thought we had agreed that I would be the pessimist for this thread !

Where Haiti is concerned, you cannot be more pessimistic than I am. It's simply not possible.

[Rex Brynen]

It is really easy to be cynical about the prospects for development in the so-called "third world"--especially if you ignore the actual data on third world development over the last thirty years or so.

In most places, we've seen striking reductions in mortality, and improvements in nutrition, education, and real disposable income--largely due to local efforts, but in some cases (notably the reductions in infant and child mortality as a consequence of vaccination and education) due to critical contributions from the international community.

Even in Haiti--certainly the most difficult development challenge in the Western hemisphere, even before the recent earthquake--under-5 mortality has dropped from 143 (per thousand) in 1994 to 76 (per thousand) in 2008--almost halving the number of child deaths.

GapMinder provides a fascinating software-based way of viewing these trends over time--have a look here. Charles Kenny also had a good piece on some of the under-recognized achievements of African development in Foreign Policy Magazine last year.