The Roles and Weapons with the Squad

[Ken White]

Realistically, if you think an infantry rifle should have a 600M range, then the M4 can already do it.

How much damage will the bullet actually do when it gets there?

For that matter, the 95% of Soldiers that aren't tasked with shooting the enemy with an IW would be best served by something small and portable.

Whoa. 95%. 95%?

Aside from the basic fact of combat life that ALL soldiers, by definition (and location) may well have to shoot the enemy with an IW and they had better be adequately trained (and practiced...) to be able to that with a weapon that is reliable and effective in worst case scenarios, I suggest that if the percentile cited were to be in fact correct, then the Army to which it applied would have some really significant organizational and purpose problems...

I think considering SOF, Scouts and everything else, it's nearer 90%.

Minor quibble made only to present the point that the exact numbers aren't critical. Regardless of the exact number, any figure in that range is still way too high and an indictment of the aforesaid organizational and purpose problems. Not to mention the training attitude and impact...

[jps2]

Is our main problem regarding light infantry main weapon and its efficiency in AfPak and small war is that they were design (M4, SA80, and others compact carbines) for high intensity conflicts where infantry have to fix the opponent infantry while support fire (machine guns, tanks, artillery) suppress the opponent.

The failure is that support fire can't be used in COIN because of collateral casualties.

So we re-discover that rifles are more effective than carbines in trained and composed infantrymen (should I say riflemen ?)

[SethB]

How much damage will the bullet actually do when it gets there?

According to most people that I've talked to, it will do enough. A friend of mine has killed people at 900M with an SPR.

Aside from the basic fact of combat life that ALL soldiers, by definition (and location) may well have to shoot the enemy with an IW and they had better be adequately trained (and practiced...) to be able to that with a weapon that is reliable and effective in worst case scenarios, I suggest that if the percentile cited were to be in fact correct, then the Army to which it applied would have some really significant organizational and purpose problems...

Once you add up all the CS and CSS guys, then add the guys that use crew served weapons, indirect fire systems and the like, and then the leadership, you have a minimal number of people actually shooting a rifle at the enemy.

My MTOE weapons is an M16A2, but I feel that I would be best served by an M9 and a CSW.

[Pete]

Rifles do things carbines can't, but carbines can't do some of the things rifles do. The other issue with the M16/M4 family of weapons is the caliber. For those reasons, if it comes down to an either-or choice for an Infantry rifle I'd opt for a long barrel in something more potent than 5.56mm.

[Ken White]

According to most people that I've talked to, it will do enough.

Most of mine, mostly grunts and workaday SF with a random other operator type (all Army) here and there disagree, as do I. S'okay, we can do that.

A friend of mine has killed people at 900M with an SPR.

Possible. Also exceptional -- and the word 'reliably' comes to mind...

Once you add up all the CS and CSS guys, then add the guys that use crew served weapons, indirect fire systems and the like, and then the leadership, you have a minimal number of people actually shooting a rifle at the enemy.

True. One can figure 3 x 27 =111/160 Rifle Co for 69%. Arbitrarily take about ~ 80% of that for Mech inf or ~ 55%. Average about 60% per Bn..

Figure roughly 100-120 Bns (Varies and depends); using 100 Bns that's ~75,000 X .6 = 45,000 / 535,000 = ~ 8.5% ± plus SF, LRS, the odd Convoy escorting MP (or other Branch person) and the like. So either figure, thine or mine is in the neighborhood. Put another way, anyway you slice it, we have too many 'others' not involved in combat by design.

How many of those 'others' get involved in actual shooting combat not by design is another question entirely...

My MTOE weapons is an M16A2, but I feel that I would be best served by an M9 and a CSW.

I'm old, CSW to me is crew served weapon and I suspect that is not what you're referring to. The plethora of initials out there is amazing.

Take the "SPR," I presume you mean a Mk 12 in 5.56 but there are several "SPRs" in various calibers out there including this one LINK and there are others -- proving that any High Speed, Low Drag piece of gear will draw cloning in name if nothing else...

[JMA]

How much damage will the bullet actually do when it gets there?

Good point. Are you asking about the 5.56 or the 7.62 or both?

But then the aim of section fire out to 600m is what?