What we support and defend

[carl]

Long history of how to do it successfully? When and where has any of this succeeded? The success that's been had against Communist nations has been generated by sustaining the status quo until they rot out from the inside. Efforts to obstruct Communist revolutions through military action or support for puppet regimes led us into a series of miserable overseas ventures and saddled us with the legacy of support for a long series of governments that inspired little beyond hatred in their own countries.

Well let's see. The Soviet Union and all those east European satellites are no more. And all the things I talked about helped maintain the status quo until they rotted as you said.

Military action kept South Korea, South Korea. A lot of South Koreans are happy about that. The Philippines aren't communist. Thailand ain't either, nor is Taiwan. Some places our assistance didn't keep the commies out like Cambodia and Laos the poor people who lived there suffered for it. So I what I see is Commies in=mass murder and suffering. Commies out=a lot less mass murder and suffering. I am not a sophisticated guy but that seems a simple choice.

Since you're talking about the Chinese here, not about "Communism" in any generic sense... how exactly do you propose to not let them shove allies around? Some suggestion of actual policy or concrete actions that might be taken to advance what seems a largely rhetorical position might be useful.

No, you say I am talking about the Chinese. I always make it clear that I am talking about the RED Chinese, the gov. The poor Chinese have suffered more at their hands than anybody.

I have made it clear in this thread and the other about the South China Sea what I mean when I say not letting them shove allies around. But I will say it again. For starters make it clear that Taiwan stays Taiwan unless there is a free decision by the Taiwanese to subject themselves to Red Chinese authority. Any sort of violence or coercion to effect that outcome is a no go. The South China Sea stays an open sea. Any claim of soveriegnty (sic) by anybody is a no go. How's that?

Of course they will try. Don't think for a moment that the Chinese people have no access to information. China is not North Korea. In order to achieve the economic growth that's made them a threat, the Chinese have had to develop a large number of sophisticated, connected individuals that they cannot fully control. Lots of people have access to information, and it does spread. That doesn't mean it isn't manipulated, but it would be a huge mistake to think the Chinese government can fully control its own populace, or that they don't have to worry about what their own people think. They worry a lot more about what their people think than they do about what we think. They badly want to inspire a rush of jingoistic nationalism to distract the populace from the overwhelming corruption, growing inequality, and an economic future that's suddenly looking less secure than it once did, and it would be silly of us to reinforce that effort, especially with actions that wouldn't accomplish anything.

The Reds may not be able to fully control that large number of sophisticated people but they have been doing well enough so far. I see no weakening of party control. I see that blind guy was genuinely concerned when word was passed that somebody might beat his wife to death. Seems a pretty strong police state to me.

Whipping trouble with foreigners is time honored way for police states to distract their people from internal problems. To go along with that it is time honored for some of those foreigners to say if we just avoid making them mad at us that effort will fail. I am skeptical of that.

What exactly do you propose to do about it? The realization alone doesn't get you anywhere. For many years Americans who shared your views adopted policies - notably support for a long series of troglodyte dictators - that played into Communist propaganda, endowed Communism with a perception of legitimacy that it would not otherwise have had, and did our cause more harm than good. Pronouncing Communism an irretrievable evil doesn't provide an intelligent or useful policy for opposing it, and it can do the opposite.

Opposing evil is a good thing. Not opposing it is a bad thing. But first you have to recognize that the evil exists. If you don't see it, you won't do the good thing. That is why it is important to see communism for what it is. Now once you see that, you can oppose it adroitly or maladroitly, but you gotta see it for what it is.

True in part, and it's certainly true that the Chinese economy is not the juggernaut it's sometimes claimed to be. All the more reason not to panic, and one more indicator that political change in China is going to come from the inside, not from anything the US does. That change may not be for the better, and may end up posing a greater rather than a lesser threat, but that can't be fully anticipated and will have to be managed as it emerges.

Wait a second, I am panicking again. Okay that passed. Wait a little while longer while I clean up the pools of drool, stitch myself up, fix the car and stop seeing double. There. I can talk now. (I know I will never stop you from characterizing concerns that you disagree with as "panic" but at least I can play around with it sometimes.)

Ultimately political change in Red China will come from within. But our actions can help maintain the status quo so as to give the system time to rot from within.