More training, less parading urged.

[sullygoarmy]

Tom- couldn't agree with you more. Everytime I see the "Soldier Show" come to a post, I keep thinking there's about a platoon of troops not in the fight. Same goes with alot of the other "morale" building tools out there like the rifle team, silent order drill team, etc.

After four years of nearly daily drill and ceremony at West Point, I'll be the first to say how much I hate it and how useless I think it is other than for important ceremonies. Jon hit it on the head. What ends up happening is valuable combat training gets put on hold to rehearse and "Pass and Review" for some change of command. Leaders go nuts with rehearsals and visions of Napoleanic maneuvers for what should be a simple ceremony. When I changed company commands, I refused to have any high flutin' ceremonies that would waste soldiers time. We did a quick rehearsal about a hour prior to the ceremonies, no marching, and that was it.

I think this goes along the lines of building a more practical army. Same with the old PT standards of the "turn and bounce" and all that other eight count PT exercises I hated as a PL. Most units have gotten smarter and now use more practical PT models like crossfit to get soldiers into good combat shape, not PT test shape. It all comes down to how we think. Do we want to spend hours teaching our infantrymen how to conduct a "Right Wheel" on the parade field, or how to breach and clear a room with bad guys in it?

Marc-As a piper, I couldn't agree with you more reference sending in the combat pipers. I brought my pipes to Iraq in 2004 and our Iraqi battalion HATED the things. I used to stand out on the roof of our barracks on a "Man-love Thursday" and play just to piss them off a little bit! Nothing better than some pipes blasting out Black bear to get your blood boiling! Send in the Pipers!!!

[Charlie 14]

Tom- couldn't agree with you more. Everytime I see the "Soldier Show" come to a post, I keep thinking there's about a platoon of troops not in the fight. Same goes with alot of the other "morale" building tools out there like the rifle team, silent order drill team, etc.

After four years of nearly daily drill and ceremony at West Point, I'll be the first to say how much I hate it and how useless I think it is other than for important ceremonies. Jon hit it on the head. What ends up happening is valuable combat training gets put on hold to rehearse and "Pass and Review" for some change of command. Leaders go nuts with rehearsals and visions of Napoleanic maneuvers for what should be a simple ceremony. When I changed company commands, I refused to have any high flutin' ceremonies that would waste soldiers time. We did a quick rehearsal about a hour prior to the ceremonies, no marching, and that was it.

I think this goes along the lines of building a more practical army. Same with the old PT standards of the "turn and bounce" and all that other eight count PT exercises I hated as a PL. Most units have gotten smarter and now use more practical PT models like crossfit to get soldiers into good combat shape, not PT test shape. It all comes down to how we think. Do we want to spend hours teaching our infantrymen how to conduct a "Right Wheel" on the parade field, or how to breach and clear a room with bad guys in it?

Marc-As a piper, I couldn't agree with you more reference sending in the combat pipers. I brought my pipes to Iraq in 2004 and our Iraqi battalion HATED the things. I used to stand out on the roof of our barracks on a "Man-love Thursday" and play just to piss them off a little bit! Nothing better than some pipes blasting out Black bear to get your blood boiling! Send in the Pipers!!!

I'll buy that, but while we're getting back to basics, what's with all the simulators? I'm amazed watching Holder Complex in motion these days with nice clean simulators training armor crewmen to presumably do armor crewmen tasks in an environment that looks, well, remarkably nice...

What happened to diesel fuel, ammo, and field time? Do they have a tank recovery simulator too? Maybe they could make a close order drill simulator...

Train like you're going to fight...

Edited to add: Please forgive my geezing...

[RTK]

I'll buy that, but while we're getting back to basics, what's with all the simulators? I'm amazed watching Holder Complex in motion these days with nice clean simulators training armor crewmen to presumably do armor crewmen tasks in an environment that looks, well, remarkably nice...

What happened to diesel fuel, ammo, and field time? Do they have a tank recovery simulator too? Maybe they could make a close order drill simulator...

Train like you're going to fight...

Edited to add: Please forgive my geezing...

Charlie 14,

Sounds like you're at Knox. Stop by CP37 off HWY 60 when we have the LTs in Gauntlet. Especially if it's raining. It dirty as hell, just the way Army training should be. EPA evens stops out to fine us every once in a while. It's awesome.

Any given week we have a Troop's worth of LTs learning their trade. Out of about 90 days in BOLC III they spend about a third of it in the field. On real equipment. They get 5 days in CCTT.

[Charlie 14]

Charlie 14,

Sounds like you're at Knox. Stop by CP37 off HWY 60 when we have the LTs in Gauntlet. Especially if it's raining. It dirty as hell, just the way Army training should be. EPA evens stops out to fine us every once in a while. It's awesome.

Any given week we have a Troop's worth of LTs learning their trade. Out of about 90 days in BOLC III they spend about a third of it in the field. On real equipment. They get 5 days in CCTT.

Things like this help me sleep better at night...I would love to stop by but the last time I saw Knox up close and personal was in 1983. I was a TC in C-1-1, I got diverted on my way to the 2/6th Cav, but that's another story, they had some new tank everybody was jazzed about, XM something or another...I have a good friend that retired down there, Dennis Arnold, one outstanding NCO, I should go down and see him.

This is a heck of a board, the knowledge and the backgrounds that people bring to the table are impressive. I think I'll talk less and learn more, I just had to chime in on that Army-warrior deal, no matter where you're coming from it seems like today's troopers are doing a heck of a job.

[Sargent]

I'm all in favor of professional competence, of training that is useful to the mission at hand, and especially of not wasting people's time.

That being said, I would argue in favor of traditions and rituals. There probably needs to be a proper balance achieved in their use, but that is the case with anything.

In a defense establishment run amok with technology as the answer to everything in war, these intangibles are a brake. As long as we remember that wars are not won by the most advanced gadgets and widgets, by he who throws the most money at the problem, we stand half a chance of succeeding at the endeavor that is war. Such things as tradition and ritual remind us that there is more to war than technology, that there is an art to the craft.

How many of you have attended the funeral of a service member killed in the line of duty recently? Do I need to say more?

At the end of the day, human beings are not robots. They do not perform well simply because they practice, or they are competent. They do not willingly sacrifice their lives because they are good professionals.

Perhaps I am biased from more than a decade of close observation of the Marine Corps and Marines. That being said, I believe I am not far off the mark in positing that it is an organization that succeeds based on more than mere competence.

Today my husband had to do something, had to see something that nobody ever should. The sort of thing that can break a person's spirit, that can make a person doubt everything he is doing. When he got back to his room, when he needed something to reassure himself of what he was doing, he popped in the dvd of the recent PBS program, "The Marines," that I had sent to him.* This is what he wrote:

"After today I had to watch the Marines video again. I know that the particularities and gritty details of it suck, but I still do really believe in the organization. I couldn't keep going everyday if I didn't."

You don't get to that point on training alone. It requires something more, something akin to faith. Faith itself is an intangible. And it is built on a foundation of other intangibles, like rituals and traditions.

Let us have enough training, _and_ enough parading.


=============
*Aside from the entertainment value for him and his team, I thought it might come in handy in their training mission. This use had never occurred to me.

[Ski]

Well said, Sergeant, well said indeed.

Traditions and ritual are the base of military service. They are there for a reason.

I am the last person in the world who enjoys any type of drill and ceremony, but it's vital, especially in the first stages of recruit training. I despise parades, but understand their worth as a matter of espirit de corps. They should be extremely limited in their scope however.

One thing I think needs to be focused on in the military of the 21st Century for all service is the development of self disclipline, rather than what I call "pressured discipline." I need to expand my thoughts on this before posting any further...

[sullygoarmy]

Charlie 14, I'll echo what RTK said. As an armor company commander in Germany, we spent more time in the field than we ever did in simulators. Granted, UCOFT (unit conduct of fire trainer) is the essential gunnery trainer for gunner/TC combinations. CCTT is a fantastic training tool as well for company teams. Where else in Germany could I run my tank company through desert scenarios (this was back in 00-01, pre OIF) so they are familiar with fighting in desert terrain, and not just German woodlands. We had the capability to really hone technical skills in these simulators...but they are just that simulators.

I'd guess we spent a day in the field for every hour of sim time we went through. That was one of the big advantages being stationed in Vilseck vice a Baumholder or Schweinfurt. Grafenwoehr was right out the back gate so we had access to maneuver areas any time we rolled the tanks. Hohenfels, although small and the "Minor league" of CTCs still provided us with some of the best maneuver training possibe. We also went to some old Russian training areas in Czech which were great training, but ecological disaster areas.

I think striking a balance between field and sim training is a vital combat multiplier. There are just some experiences you can't physically or fiscally do without a simulator (or a court martial) but then you cannot replace the essential lessons of field time.

As for the rifle team comment, I have yet to have a single one of my infantry or armor soldiers benefit from the existance of rifle teams. Doesn't mean they aren't worthwhile in some PA manor...I just think there are better places for these competitive shooter to be...like training our units prior to going into combat. Do these rifle teams step away from their competitions and high speed gear to train joe in 3-505 PIR? If you want to prove their worth to me, don't bother showing me links to two or three historical great shooters. Show me a link where members of the Army Rifle Team are going TDY to units and teaching our young soldiers how to be better shooters, especially in combat environments not to olympic try outs, and shooting match trips.

[nichols]

Czech which were great training, but ecological disaster areas. .

Hey, only good comments about Czech Republic allowed, there are no disasters, just good beer.

I have fond memories of 7th CATC.

As for the rifle team comment, I have yet to have a single one of my infantry or armor soldiers benefit from the existance of rifle teams.

You have to look at it from a Marine perspective (cheap). I used to have our sniper platoon participate in the Far East Competition on an annual basis. A lot of 5.56mm & 9mm ammo down range without taking out of our annual ammo allotment.

[Rifleman]

If you want to prove their worth to me, don't bother showing me links to two or three historical great shooters. Show me a link where members of the Army Rifle Team are going TDY to units and teaching our young soldiers how to be better shooters, especially in combat environments not to olympic try outs, and shooting match trips.

Well, that's fair. I don't know how common it is but I do know that it's been done with great results.

9th Infantry Division commander MG Julian J. Ewell did just that in 1968. He brought AMTU instructors from Ft. Benning to Vietnam to train 9th Division snipers. Major Willis J. Powell commanded the instructor staff.

From Inside the Crosshairs by Michael Lee Lanning:

"Powell, a native of Guthrie, Oklahoma, had more than twenty years in the army and had advanced to the rank of master sergeant before attending officer candidate school. Along with the experience of years of competitive shooting at the national and international level, Powell had served a previous tour in Vietnam in 1963 and 1964 as an adviser to the ARVN."

I reiterate that I don't know how common this has been.

[BushrangerCZ]

We also went to some old Russian training areas in Czech which were great training, but ecological disaster areas.

What a BS... Actually, military training areas have the best protected and conserved nature in the country, comparable with national parks. For example, the best Czech red deer trophies are from VVP Libava (military training area Libava).

[nichols]

I'll buy that, but while we're getting back to basics, what's with all the simulators?

What happened to diesel fuel, ammo, and field time? Do they have a tank recovery simulator too? Maybe they could make a close order drill simulator...

Train like you're going to fight...

Charlie,

Sorry about the delay in giving my 2 cents on the above.

Simulations can not replace field time. From a training perspective they can make field time much better. Usually towards the end of training the unit is finally working like a well oiled machine. Analytical and intuitive decision-making is at it's best because they have had the past couple of days in the field to learn the tactical problem that is being presented. Up until now Infantry Simulations have been dealing with intuitive/recognitional type decision-making training.

Current simulations that are being fielded beginning in August give the end user the ability to import geo-specific terrain. The models are being accurately created in the sim; you will run out of gas, ammo, and SDZ will have an effect in regards to direct and indirect fires. A day or so of sim work before you take your unit into the field will give you the opportunity to work out C2 issues within your unit and work the tactical problem.

Near term, should be about 12-18 months from now you will be able to pull in geo-specific culture & language. The goal is to do mission rehearsal.

The services are starting to put a lot of funding, effort, and thought into Ground Combat Arms type simulations.

Just throwing this out there hoping that you'll keep an open mind until you've seen the results of the simulation training.

[120mm]

I'll chime in on the value of simulators. Things like safety, training distractors associated with running a life fire range and ammo forecasting/ordering/cost make "range day" a pretty intense event. Simulators like the EST 2000, where you can put a squad online and shoot a large variety of scenarios using virtual ammunition can really steepen the learning curve in combat shooting.

In an earlier thread, http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=2687 I remarked how much I learned by spending an afternoon shooting in the EST 2000 simulator, and for things like shooting aerial moving targets, or moving targets at all, there is really no replacement for a good simulation.

I build and shoot AR15s as a hobby; I can think of no place where I can shoot my AR at an aerial target. I mean, the bullet has to go somewhere, and not having to worry about where your "misses" go allows you to press the envelope on how to get "hits."

OBTW, I also coach 3P smallbore, and I don't think it's a coincidence that our best shooters make good soldiers. The discipline-thing is key to both.

[Rifleman]

Tom- couldn't agree with you more. Everytime I see the "Soldier Show" come to a post, I keep thinking there's about a platoon of troops not in the fight. Same goes with alot of the other "morale" building tools out there like the rifle team, silent order drill team, etc.

Overall I think you bring out some good points but I respectfully disagree about rifle teams.

Some of the best combat riflemen this country has ever produced have been forged on the anvil of competitive shooting. Competitive shooting is an invaluable discipline even if the training and competition are not combat specific. The training reinforces the basics of marksmanship and the competition requires disciplined shooting under stress. These are always good things.

Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock is perhaps the best known example of a competitive rifleman who was a stunning success in combat. Here are examples of some others:

http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/woodfill.htm

http://hometown.aol.com/lds1952/index.html

May rifle teams flourish long after dog and pony shows are a dim memory!

[Charlie 14]

Overall I think you bring out some good points but I respectfully disagree about rifle teams.

Some of the best combat riflemen this country has ever produced have been forged on the anvil of competitive shooting. Competitive shooting is an invaluable discipline even if the training and competition are not combat specific. The training reinforces the basics of marksmanship and the competition requires disciplined shooting under stress. These are always good things.

Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock is perhaps the best known example of a competitive rifleman who was a stunning success in combat. Here are examples of some others:

http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/woodfill.htm

http://hometown.aol.com/lds1952/index.html

May rifle teams flourish long after dog and pony shows are a dim memory!

And on that note, DoD ought to buy the mailing lists of every department of natural resources in this nation and target junior hunters when they reach 17...Show me a kid who is comfortable in the woods and can hit a squirrel in the head with a .22 at 75 yards with open sights and I'll show you a newly minted E-1 with potential...Any marksmanship matters. How in the world can the Army promote themselves as the pre-emminent ground force in this nation and not field a team?

Why do the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels exist? They have young kids watching and they light a dream, they evoke pride...Last time I checked this was an all volunteer force...You need volunteers, talented volunteers are even better.

[Rifleman]

Good point, and as an Appalachian boy I can relate.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that some of the best combat riflemen this country has ever produced have been forged on the anvil of squirrel hunting, then refined and polished by formal practice and competition shooting.