Who are the great generals?

[marct]

Hi Teqila,

Thermopylae is so far back in history and so shrouded in mythmaking that we have little real data to go on.....

Thermopylae ranks as an outstanding information operation in that it held enormous propaganda value, especially for Sparta in maintaining its place at the head of the anti-Persian alliance in the face of a determined Athenian challenge.

Agreed, but hat was the point I was trying to make: you can construct a "loss" as a major symbol for motivation. There are a number of others that I could have chosen, but Thermopylae is rather outstanding (Pearl Harbour would work as well).

[tequila]

Hi Teqila,



Agreed, but hat was the point I was trying to make: you can construct a "loss" as a major symbol for motivation. There are a number of others that I could have chosen, but Thermopylae is rather outstanding (Pearl Harbour would work as well).

Except I would argue that Thermopylae's principal value was as IO for Sparta in intra-Greek politics, rather than as a sort of rallying cry against Persia --- the anti-Persian alliance was already largely committed to the struggle, and Salamis proved to be a mostly Athenian affair anyways, mooting the necessity of allied Greek motivation in ultimate victory.

[wm]

you can construct a "loss" as a major symbol for motivation. There are a number of others that I could have chosen, but Thermopylae is rather outstanding (Pearl Harbour would work as well).

MarcT,
I suspect that this really only works when you end up being the big winner.
Some examples: Thermopylae--Greeks won in the end
Alamo--Texans finished as winners after San Jacinto
Pearl Harbor, Bataan/Corregidor, Kasserine Pass, Little Big
Horn, 1st and 2nd Manasas--US ended up winning the
whole shooting match every time.
Crimean War and Charge of the Light Brigade--Brits
victorious
Consider the other side: French in Russia, 1812--big disaster, big final loss.
Germans at Verdun in WWI
Russians in every battle in the Russo-Japanese War.
And then there are some where the final outcome is neither a clear cut victory nor defeat and we get mixed reviews about individual actions within them--like Task Force Smith or Frozen Chosin in Korea.

[marct]

Hi WM,

MarcT,
I suspect that this really only works when you end up being the big winner.

Hmmm, could well be. Off the top of my head, I can only think of two (possibly) counter examples: Masada and Wounded Knee. Then again, it could be argued that both of them were "re-constructed" as part of revitalization movements.

Marc

[Merv Benson]

I think Santa Anna decision was the much bigger mistake and it wound up costing him the war, since the Texas Army under Sam Houston was able to get into a position to ultimately defeat him while he was pummeling a fortress he could have easily by passed. Patton would not have made that mistake. Travis' effort bought time that Santa Anna could not afford.

[tequila]

I think Santa Anna decision was the much bigger mistake and it wound up costing him the war, since the Texas Army under Sam Houston was able to get into a position to ultimately defeat him while he was pummeling a fortress he could have easily by passed. Patton would not have made that mistake. Travis' effort bought time that Santa Anna could not afford.

Arguably Patton did make a similar error with his fixation with taking Metz in 1944.

[wm]

Arguably Patton did make a similar error with his fixation with taking Metz in 1944.

I suspect Patton and Metz is very different than Santa Ana at the Alamo. I think Patton's sense of history got the best of his tactical /operational judgment. He was following in both French and German footsteps from 1870 and 1914 by viewing Metz as key to Germany/Alsace-Lorraine. I think Santa Ana viewed the reduction of the Alamo as a way of striking a winning blow in the IO war--it would demonstrate his willingness and ability to overcome any rebellious force in his path and seem, thereby, invincible to the people under his rule. Both of these actions seem to reflect a form of megalomania I suppose, but the two men were megalomaniacs with different agendas.

[Fred III]

Norfolk--

Thank you. Those are kind words and very much appreciated. I find this site a bit humbling for I see names I should know something about, but have never even heard of. It really does allow one to re-set his compass. I am also impressed with and pleased by the lack of acrimony. That says a lot about your membership and your moderator. I have friends who have been driven from interesting discussions because of the distasteful repartee and the name-calling.

Best wishes,
Fred.