The Ju Ju of War

[tequila]

The 'problem' with Christians is there are so many different interpretations out there. Muslims seem a little more united in their belief system, and I find that interesting.

Hmmm ... are you really sure about this, given the fact that Sunnis and Shi'i are murdering each other by the dozen in Iraq every day, w/similar simmering sectarian conflict in Lebanon, Bahrain, Pakistan, etc.

[marct]

Hi Tequila,

Hmmm ... are you really sure about this, given the fact that Sunnis and Shi'i are murdering each other by the dozen in Iraq every day, w/similar simmering sectarian conflict in Lebanon, Bahrain, Pakistan, etc.

It really isn't dissimilar to what Christians were doing in the 11th to 16th centuries. The fracture lines, at least amongst the Sunni, tend to be more on emphasis than basic beliefs. The Sunni-Shia split is, definitely, about a limited number of basic beliefs but, I would argue, is a less radical split than the Unitarian-Trinitarian split inside Christianity, let alone the Gnostic-Orthodox split.

[tequila]

The difference between orthopraxic and orthodoxic is key in the lack of sort of witch-hunt mentality in classical Islam. However there have been definite cases where there was out-and-out persecution based on matters of belief. The Kharijites and Azraqis are examples. The modern-day takfiris are another. Sufism danced close to the edge until al-Ghazali definitively integrated them into sharia. The Qizilbash movement that eventually purged Sunni Islam from Persia is perhaps the most consequential example.

Marct - I agree that overall the split is less radical in terms of belief, but it is more violent at the moment. Far less so than the religious wars of Europe, though. Ironic that Islam is about as old as Christianity was during the Reformation.

[skiguy]

Ironic that Islam is about as old as Christianity was during the Reformation.

Interesting. I never thought of that.

tequila, I wasn't saying there is no violence between them. Of course I'm aware of that. But from what I basically know of Islam, their belief system is more united than Christians. They all have the same view of the Qur'an, Allah, and, to some extent, Mohammed. If I'm not mistaken, and outside of the twelvers (?), they all share the same eschatological beliefs. (correct me if I'm wrong) Ask a Catholic what the end times will be like, then ask a fundamentalist...the answers won't even be close. Some Christians don't believe the Bible is innerant or that Christ is God, some do. (That's a quite an important theological difference, IMO)

[marct]

Marct - I agree that overall the split is less radical in terms of belief, but it is more violent at the moment. Far less so than the religious wars of Europe, though. Ironic that Islam is about as old as Christianity was during the Reformation.

Oh, I agree that it is more violent now and, yes, I had noted the relative times . Speaking of which, have you noticed that Al Ghazali, Maimonides and Aquinas all show up at roughly the same period?

tequila, I wasn't saying there is no violence between them. Of course I'm aware of that. But from what I basically know of Islam, their belief system is more united than Christians. They all have the same view of the Qur'an, Allah, and, to some extent, Mohammed. If I'm not mistaken, and outside of the twelvers (?), they all share the same eschatological beliefs. (correct me if I'm wrong) Ask a Catholic what the end times will be like, then ask a fundamentalist...the answers won't even be close. Some Christians don't believe the Bible is innerant or that Christ is God, some do. (That's a quite an important theological difference, IMO)

If by "view of the Qur'an" you mean the equivalent of the Christian concept of innerancy, then yes. If you mean interpretation, then no. Part of the key to that, however, is that the Qur'an is not the Qur'an if it is translated - something that has caused immense problems for Christians. Just to give one, Christian, example, the phrase "the Kingdom of God" shows up in a lot of English translations of the Gospel of John. The original koine word, however, is "imperium" which is better translated as "sphere of influence" as opposed to "basileon" or kingdom (sorry, I don't have a greek TT font here).

Another difference is that, by and large, Islam doesn't engage in theology. Theology, as a practice, is "heretical" to Islam in that it presumes that one can "know the mind of God". The vast majority of Islam engages in "law", not theology, which is attempts to interpret the Qur'an and Hadith in a logical manner, but always recognizes that such interpretations must, inevitably, be flawed since they are the work of mortals, not God.

This is distinctly different from the concept of "continuing revelation" that exists within Christianity. With a couple of very minor exceptions, and I believe the Hashashiyan was one, anyone who says "God has told me thus and so" would pretty much be killed outright - which certainly isn't the case in Christianity!