COIN comes home to assist policing

[davidbfpo]

Why so, given the history with Ireland?

You'd think there'd be more interest within the Metropolitan Police and other UK law-enforcement for non-typical policework. . . then again, you don't have the guns and murder problems that we do (or at least I haven't seen them?). Regards,

Matt

All manner of reasons. It is a moot point that the methods used by the British Army and the police (RUC) to counter terrorism and associated criminal activity would suit the normal problems of urban mainland UK, including gun crime. Northern Ireland was a very intensive environment, notably urban West Belfast and rural South Armagh, where amidst a largely un-co-operative public PIRA operated. The latest knife murders of teenagers in London for example are quite different.

Applying COIN, even CT methods to mainland policing and in the USA I venture to suggest are not appropriate. I have my doubts that police managers would accept, even understand, COIN.

davidbfpo

[Ron Humphrey]

All manner of reasons. It is a moot point that the methods used by the British Army and the police (RUC) to counter terrorism and associated criminal activity would suit the normal problems of urban mainland UK, including gun crime. Northern Ireland was a very intensive environment, notably urban West Belfast and rural South Armagh, where amidst a largely un-co-operative public PIRA operated. The latest knife murders of teenagers in London for example are quite different.

Applying COIN, even CT methods to mainland policing and in the USA I venture to suggest are not appropriate. I have my doubts that police managers would accept, even understand, COIN.

davidbfpo

That if they just manage to catch the parts like failure to account for failure in the system and thus failure to address them makes things worse, and / or
as long as everyone has to follow the same rules local disputes would become less frequent then I think we'll still be one step closer to where we need to be

[MattC86]

All manner of reasons. It is a moot point that the methods used by the British Army and the police (RUC) to counter terrorism and associated criminal activity would suit the normal problems of urban mainland UK, including gun crime. Northern Ireland was a very intensive environment, notably urban West Belfast and rural South Armagh, where amidst a largely un-co-operative public PIRA operated. The latest knife murders of teenagers in London for example are quite different.

Applying COIN, even CT methods to mainland policing and in the USA I venture to suggest are not appropriate. I have my doubts that police managers would accept, even understand, COIN.

davidbfpo

Well, I should have been far more clear. I don't mean to suggest that COIN techniques are something that municipal police forces should take up and study. I would just assume there'd be a little more interest among police forces, given that people are always pejoratively calling COIN heavily-armed policework. . .

To put it another way, do you think that UK police (or any police, for that matter) could gain something from the proverbial lessons learned in COIN efforts in Northern Ireland or elsewhere?

Actually, as a follow-up, you take it, then, that the British Army took far more from its Northern Ireland experience than any police institution did?

Regards,

Matt

[davidbfpo]

Well, I should have been far more clear. I don't mean to suggest that COIN techniques are something that municipal police forces should take up and study. I would just assume there'd be a little more interest among police forces, given that people are always pejoratively calling COIN heavily-armed policework. . .

To put it another way, do you think that UK police (or any police, for that matter) could gain something from the proverbial lessons learned in COIN efforts in Northern Ireland or elsewhere?

Actually, as a follow-up, you take it, then, that the British Army took far more from its Northern Ireland experience than any police institution did?

Regards,

Matt

Far too many issues to easily answer. COIN is not for me heavily armed policework: COIN is usually where government legitimacy is weak, with little if any popular support and the opposition comes from capable armed insurgents whose identity is largely unknown. Most Western policing operates where legitimacy is far from weak, albeit contested in some areas (inner city slums); popular support exists and the identity of the opposition is known - although not actually what they do.

The military operate with precison regarding their opponents; the police often do not know who their opponents are.

Yes, policing can learn from COIN, but with care. Tasking and co-ordination groups (TCG) from Ulster is one of the most visible lessons learned; alongside technical aids to surveillance, notably ANPR and CCTV. Looking for other options to arrest, charge and convict is another - notably seen in using disruption. Use of informants is another, although many are critical of those lessons (from the Army & RUC).

What did the UK Army learn? Biggest lesson, never get involved overtly at home! That maybe reflected in seeking better policing, notably in riot control / public order (No.1 issue in the early 1980's for the UK government for the Home Office, less now). Other lesson - remember I have no miltary expereience - how effective small unit leadership was. The best example being responding directly at incidents to press enquiries with those there and not a press officer miles away.

I am not aware if anyone from the UK Army has written publically on what lessons they learnt. I know the official reflections on UK Army deployment, called Op Banner, was posted on the web and a quick read in '07 left no lasting impression.

I am sure we will talk about this next weekend!

davidbfpo

[CPT Holzbach]

http://www.examiner.com/a-1423820%7E..._violence.html

This sort of thing works, to an extent, in COIN. In America? Not a chance. And if it does lower crime in certain neighborhoods, why not do it in EVERY neighborhood? Slippery slope, there. I'm thinking the overturning of the DC gun ban (very likely to happen this month), neighborhood watches, and people who don't go along with the "stop snitchin'" mentality would work a whole lot better. This is a fine example of a COIN technique that should NOT come home.

[slapout9]

This is a lot of whooee about nothing. It is a short term project 10 days according to the article and they are only going to control designated areas (most likely private or government property). This is a very old Police technique nothing new here. The was one of the core techniques used in the old Federal Weed and Seed program. The Feds paid the overtime for the police to do just what is talked about in the article and provided funds for other community building projects.... hence Weed the LE part and Seed the building part. Yes it does sound similar to Clear,Hold and Build but it is a lot more focused and the time frames are a lot shorter. This is more about a police chief learning to be a politician than anything else.