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Forum Organization? | Main / All | Participant Communities | Conflicts | Military Functions | Small Wars COI | Members Only |
| Intelligence What do we know, need to know, and how do we get there? |
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#1 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Neither Here Nor There
Posts: 23
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http://www.ishmaeljones.com/solution...elligence-ref/
Quote:
__________________
Quote:
Last edited by Jedburgh; 08-02-2008 at 10:00 PM. |
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#2 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 2,338
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for the signature translation.
Seems there might be an interesting legal case brewing: Quote:
Seems folks want to challenge the Snepp decision - SCOTUS for agency. Quote:
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#3 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DeRidder LA
Posts: 3,867
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From I quick read I agree with most of it.
especially Quote:
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#4 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Rancho La Espada, Blanchard, OK
Posts: 991
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not all. But I think he misses the bigger picture. CIA, since it was created, has been built around 3 major directorates - Intelligence (DI), Operations (DO), and Scientific & Technical (S&T). While the names may have changed since I left any Intel or Intel related assignments, the functions are still there and have been there since Wild Bill Donovan created the OSS. Unlike his British mentors who had 2 separate and distinct operational components - SIS (MI6) and SOE - Donovan had both clandestine collection and paramilitary ops under the DO function. When CIA came along, it adopted the same organization.
In my understanding of intelligence, the questions that policy makers need answered should drive the intel agency to frame requirements. this framing of requirements is inherently an analytical function and, therefore, belongs in DI. The analysts should be tasking the collectors with specific requirements while the collectors should be sharing even the seredipitous collections with the analysts which, in turn, should generate both new requirements and new questions from the policy makers. As far as the covert ops and paramilitary ops go, these are NOT inherently intel functions. Those who conduct them are intel consumers just as divisions, brigades, and battalions are. But, you might ask, what about the cav squadron in a division? Is it not an asset of the G2? Although the 2 has tasking authority, the squadron commander is primarily responsible to the G3. Historically, rewards in cIA have gone to the covert operators who were involved in both clandestine collection and covert ops. The latter held the bigger rewards so th former got short shrift. (Jones may be making a reference to this phenomenon.) From my perspective, it appears that the CIA was run as if the Cav squadron were driving the train - deciding on its own authortiy whether to meet the G2 requirements or not because combat was more fun. I was told by a DI guy seconded to DO that he was not allowed to share a critical report with his fellow DI analysts. I was told by a DO guy that my perception of many of the case officers in Latin America as "cowboys" was shared by case officers from other areas of operations (this was in the late 80s and early 90s). So, does creating DNI just add an unnecessary layer of management? I don't think so because the DCI was too closely identified with the CIA to effectively manage the entire intel community. I was encouraged that the first DNI, John Negroponte, came from the intel consumer community and not from the producers (or even the analysts). As an aside, the only CIA director ever to come out of DI was SECDEF Bob Gates. All the rest have been case officers or intel managers (often from NSA like Gen Hayden and DNI Adm McConnell). Bottom line: The solution is not in reforming one agency but rather reforming the entire community as well as the agencies that make it up. If I were King (it's good to be the King ) I would always have a consumer as DNI and an analyst as Dir CIA. I would split off covert ops and paramilitary from CIA - where to put them is an open question but they should be neither primary collectors nor their own analysts.Cheers JohnT |
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#5 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Slapout,Al.
Posts: 3,319
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#6 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 2,338
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from FrontPage. Selected the part relevant to the legal issues, but there is more on the nuts & bolts:
Quote:
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#7 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 542
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The publisher, Encounter Books, is the publishing arm of a center-right not profit foundation. Founded by Peter Collier and associated with his pal David Horowitz, who is another red-diaper baby turned jacobin, Encounter churns out highbrow neoconservative literature by the likes of Bill Kristol, John Fund, and Victor Davis Hanson among others.
The cover jacket praise also is a redflag with blurbs from uber-neocon wonk and McCain adviser Max Boot, and Lindsay Moran a DO veteran of all of one tour in Macedonia, and author of possibly one of the worst spy memoir ever published. Lindsay Moran was the best person formerly of the agency that they could get to vouch for it? Really? What about even the critics like Gerecht, McGovern or Robert Steele? I don't know what a "deep cover officer" is. And I am certain hat whatever they are, CIA does not have them. They do however have officers under Non Official Cover. Jones and Encounter bemoan recent intelligence memoirs that “were written for the profit of the authors”, specifically former NOC officer Valerie Plame and tarnished DCI Tenet's books. Such bullying is typical neoconservative behavior, picking on the weak so they can pump their chests, only to avoid taking such a posture towards Gary Bernsten or Bob Baer who undoubtedly profited from their books and are harder and cooler than they. Jones' reform to “transfer overseas human intelligence collection efforts to the US military” is misguided and would be fulfillment of the Rumsfeld era's naked assault on CIA. The neoconservatives have had it out for CIA going back at least to Richard Pipe's Team B, just like Iraq, wanting it to be destroyed and “be broken into its constituent parts”. This maybe just another neocon hatchet job on the agency. The Jones interview in David Horowitz's Frontpage cements my skepticism with this little diddy: Quote:
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#8 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DeRidder LA
Posts: 3,867
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Quote:
Best Tom |
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#9 | ||||||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,329
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From both sides of the political spectrum, too...
Quote:
I'd also point out that partisanship cuts both ways; legitimate criticism can be negated by claiming partisanship and illegitimate criticism can be elevated by the same thing. What's required is to simply filter the information provided and apply logic instead of bias to the issue. Quote:
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The real problems with national level Humint did not arise until Nixon had Schlesinger start the dismantling of the DO in 1973, the Rockefeller Commission and the Church Committee did their thing and James Earl Carter and Stansfield Turner completed the massacre. The Agency has never fully recovered. Efforts to ramp up DIA to cover the shortfall were probably necessary. In short, Jones has some good points. He has some bad points. Accept the good and discard the bad -- and as the disagreement between you and I over the humint mission show, what's good and what's bad can be in the eye of the viewer. The problem is that the IC is in disarray right now and this is not a good time for that to be the case. Congress means well but reform efforts will become a partisan political football and little will be done. While I strongly disagreed with the establishment of the DNI, his existence is a fact so we can only hope that the incumbent and his successors fix the problem. As Tom and John said, a fix is needed -- that's one thing we can probably all agree upon. |
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#10 | |||||||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 2,338
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Mr. White.
I be a-wishin I been a-writin that - rather than thinking it. Quote:
Quote:
Now, trying to apply Mr. White's mode of analysis in my fumbling McCarthy manner. Since Lindsay Moran has been mentioned, here is her review of Jones' book Quote:
Here is a review of Ms. Moran by a longer-serving agency gal: Quote:
Which does not necessarily mean that everything Ms. Moran says is bull. The part of Ms. Sutherland's article that bears more attention is the apparent liberality of the Publications Review Board to allow disclosure of training methods. Another of the three reviewers in Jones' webpage (cited above) is Michael Ross (the other is Max Boot), who says: Quote:
http://www.afio.com/22_intelligencer.htm The bottom line of Peake's review (p.127) is Quote:
The next piece of "evidence". Quote:
From which, I infer that a publisher and four folks got together to sell their books. Conspiracy ? - anything is possible and can be conceived - see quote below signature. So, back to Mr. White: "What's required is to simply filter the information provided and apply logic instead of bias to the issue." PS1 (Ken) Do you happen to live near US 41 ? PS2 Now some other folks can launch into a discussion of "deep cover, mesne cover, and thin cover officers" - to say nothing of "agents" and "spies".
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#11 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,329
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#12 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 2,338
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right on it.
On the Redneck Snowbelt.... Thought great minds might run along the same highway. Now, I'll have to come up with a more "complicated and implausible" explanation. PS: The url for Ms. Sutherland's article is now giving me problems - Sun website down ? Worked fine this afternoon. Maybe my wife's computer - since she hates "I spy stuff", maybe it too. Have to go before she throws me out of her wigwam.
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. Last edited by Jedburgh; 08-04-2008 at 01:58 AM. |
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#13 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,329
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Snowbelt or ice cube belt? Benton Harbor is as far north as I've been in a Michigan winter and that was quite enough, thank you...
![]() Quote:
![]() My Mother told my wife before we married that what I said would be "generally believable..." My own mother!... No idea what she meant by that.
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#14 | ||||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 2,338
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Quote:
http://www.johndee.com/history.htm Ideal winter temp is about 20-25F. Anything at 32F or higher is a problem because snow melts, creates a mess and then freezes - leading to an ice cube belt in driveway. Plus, it makes igloo living wet; and bear can more easily breach the walls. See Pierre of the North comic strip. I expect this site will tell you more about this region than you want to know. Quote:
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__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#15 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,329
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the snow load...
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#16 | ||||||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 2,338
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and back to the topic.
For those interested in the possible legal issues here - and, keep in mind, that no one has brought any kind of legal action for or against Mr. Jones - some background on the Frank Snepp case. Very brief Wiki bio of Mr. Snepp is here (updated 14 Jul 2008): Quote:
Webpage and links by Mr. Snepp (updated ?; last copyright 2006): Quote:
Of the links, "Supreme Court" and "CIA on Snepp" are worth reading - simply to understand Mr. Snepp's perspective. The SCOTUS decision was mercifully brief (in comparison to most) - and unanimous. The holding was Quote:
Note 1 (re: Jones): Mr. Jones has stated that "My book is also the first CIA book for which all author profits will be given away." (see FrontPage cited above) While that would not technically affect the Government's case if one were brought (under Snepp case logic of a constructive trust, the Government could still go after the funds in the hands of the charitable recipients), it would certainly affect the PR aspect - and perhaps, affect the decision to pursue civil litigation or not. Note 2 (re: Jones): Mr. Jones has also stated that "There is no classified information in my book." (FrontPage). That remains the sole evidence on that unless and until contrary evidence is presented and accepted under relevant proof standards. The agency's Publications Review Board's decisions can be appealed internally within the agency and externally in the Federal court system. See, for legal references, current through dates stated: Quote:
The second cite is to an internal memo, agency approved for external release 2003/11/06, which has one particularly relevant recommendation (p.19): Quote:
Note 3 (re: Jones): Mr. Jones has also stated (FrontPage) that Quote:
Googling - "publications review board" cia - will get you about 500 hits on PRB reviews.
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#17 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 2,338
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My statement in above post was "The SCOTUS decision was mercifully brief (in comparison to most) - and unanimous."
Wrong on "unanimous". Though the decision was Per Curium (by the Court), there was a dissent by JJ. Stevens, Brennan and Marshall as to several substantive and procedural points. The holding quoted is correct; and is the ruling presently in effect, unless and until overruled.
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#18 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 10
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Last edited by Ken White; 09-11-2008 at 01:20 AM. Reason: Moved to existing thread / KW |
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#19 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 2,338
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in Military Art & Science Applied > Intelligence forum at
http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=5832 with quite a bit of relevant discussion (except for my off-topic back and forth with Ken White, which I should have done by PM). A moderator will probably move your post (& this one) there. No big sin & keep posting. The Intelligence forum should have some topics of interest to you, in light of Quote:
If you are looking at analysis or other "home office stuff", plan on a PhD or law degree; keep up the language and area studies; and keep clean. Same first name here, but I go by Mike (2nd name).
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#20 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 2,338
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into the right pew, we can address this:
Quote:
1. What's coming for him ? 2. But, far more important, your reasoned analysis of why. First class assignment Intel Law 101
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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