COIN comes home to assist policing

[tripleoption]

Tripleoption,

I agree it is COIN like, and that street gangs (1st, 2d, and 3d generation gangs) present growing challenge that we can't simply "arrest our way out of; " however, since you brought up "underlying causes," in your view what are the underlying causes that lead to these gang problems, and how can the police or community at large address them? I realize it is often different in each case, but if you're familiar with a particular problem set I would like to see your views on it.

Bill,

The real problems in these neighborhoods aren't necessarily the big national gangs (Latin Kings, GD etc...). The problem are smaller local "posse" groups that are selling the heroin and crack to those inside the community as well as those traveling in from the suburbs.

The biggest root cause is passive support. See a drug dealer, a shooting etc...don't call the police. The gangs rely on this; they thrive on it.

If the public is empowered (by the legitimacy of the police effort) and is properly instructed on correctly reporting (street leaders education) then the gangs can't rely on the knowledge that nobody will "snitch" on them.

If the gangs can't sell outside with impunity (we're talking about an area that was literally an open air heroin market, heroin sales on Main St in broad daylight) then they are forced inside and we can pick them off there.

There are other factors and tactics, such as revoking their housing etc but it is much too complicated an issue to fully get into here. I will PM you a website. Check it out and then let me know what you think.

[tripleoption]

NY Times: With Green Beret Tactics, Combating Gang Warfare

[Bill Moore]

Thanks for the article, but without more information it is hard to determine if this approach is having a real impact, and while it co-opts the community, I don't see how it is addressing the underlying issues that facilitated the gang issue in the first place. I'm sure unemployment plays a role, but perhaps not as significant as some suggest. Gangs offer more than employment, they offer easy money in some cases a sense of belonging. How do you address the sense of belonging that often missing these youths' lives? How do you effectively change their moral beliefs so they choose to reject this way of life? If you can do that, then you addressed the underlying issues. Based on the article, it appears they effectively co-opted the community to fight the gangs (all good), but not really address the underlying issues. Thoughts?

[tripleoption]

Thanks for the article, but without more information it is hard to determine if this approach is having a real impact, and while it co-opts the community, I don't see how it is addressing the underlying issues that facilitated the gang issue in the first place. I'm sure unemployment plays a role, but perhaps not as significant as some suggest. Gangs offer more than employment, they offer easy money in some cases a sense of belonging. How do you address the sense of belonging that often missing these youths' lives? How do you effectively change their moral beliefs so they choose to reject this way of life? If you can do that, then you addressed the underlying issues. Based on the article, it appears they effectively co-opted the community to fight the gangs (all good), but not really address the underlying issues. Thoughts?

Bill,

Bearing in mind that I was not an SF guy nor am I an expert in COIN, I think I can address some of your issues.

I'm not sure that what C3 is trying to address is "why do gangs exist?", it's a complicated issue and I am sure you are right to cite belonging and money as main components of the gang's allure.

What C3 (IMHO) is trying to address is why are the gangs here; a not so subtle distinction. C3 attempts to remove community support from the gangs, both passive and active. The gangs don't feel comfortable operating in the are so they either leave, get out of the business of selling drugs or they get locked up by MSP or SPD. They become low hanging fruit because the community hangs them out to dry. One of the main reasons that gangs thrive in these areas is a fear of the police and general apathy/hostility. Take that away and the gang banger that used to sell drugs on the sidewalk in broad daylight (without a care in the world) is now laying low and running scared.

There are many other components you haven't seen a lot about ( as I am sure you have guessed) involving community programs, jobs etc. These components foster a positive attitude towards the police and their community in general.

This methodology was utilized by ODA 944 in Iraq and Trooper Sarrouf (Capt Sarrouf) and Trooper Cutone (MSgt Cutone) are both assigned to the MSP Special Projects Team and have an incredible amount of input into how the mission is conducted.

I am quite sure that I am not doing C3 justice, but I am open to further discussion.

[slapout9]

Not real Green Beret Tactics IMO. Real Green Beret Tactics in this situation would be more like the book Killing Pablo which would be highly illegal in the US. Creating a Counter-Gang like Los Pepes would be real Green Beret stuff.

The whole article is more like a Police Public Realtions event IMO. Real Green Berets don't like publicity on real operations....messes up the whole thing.

[tripleoption]

Not real Green Beret Tactics IMO. Real Green Beret Tactics in this situation would be more like the book Killing Pablo which would be highly illegal in the US. Creating a Counter-Gang like Los Pepes would be real Green Beret stuff.

The whole article is more like a Police Public Realtions event IMO. Real Green Berets don't like publicity on real operations....messes up the whole thing.

And what do you know about "real Green Beret tactics"?

I think the two "real Green Beret" SF soldiers that created C3 and work on the SPT every day might disagree.

You know, the guys that have been doing it in the field for 20+ years? Or, I could just take the word of a guy on the internet that read a book once.

Unbelievable.

[slapout9]

And what do you know about "real Green Beret tactics"?

I think the two "real Green Beret" SF soldiers that created C3 and work on the SPT every day might disagree.

You know, the guys that have been doing it in the field for 20+ years? Or, I could just take the word of a guy on the internet that read a book once.

Unbelievable.

Yes,you are pretty unbelievable and definitely confused. If you had done any checking of previous threads you would have found out we have had pretty extensive discussions on this subject with real Green Berets, real Army Officers(one was a former SWJ editor),and real Police Officers.

[slapout9]

tripleaction,
First I clearly stated in my first post that it is my opinion (IMO) if you believe me or not is up to you not me,if you think that is arrogant again that is up to you to decide not me but I will try and make myself a little clearer. I don't see the "difference" between what we at SWC have been calling COIN tactics and what you are calling Green Beret tactics?

My point of reference is this. In 1973 I went through what I call the one minute Green Beret Course. For a month I was involved in a war game where 2"A" teams fought each other,one with a guerrilla force and the other with a conventional force. It was called Operation "Cable Alley" and resulted in the death of one member of our Auxillary,which resulted in a lot of paperwork and a lot of documentation that your SF friends could research if you want some type of proof that I am not just some guy on the internet. (If you want names it needs to be taken offline).Those tactics that I learned would be highly successful against any type of Gang in the USA but they would also be highly illegal. So again no disrespect intended but I don't see how those tactics could legally be used against gangs inside the USA.

Also, I am retired LE, started in 77 and except for a short detour have been in it ever since. Again this is my opinion but LE cannot solve the gang problem,with or without COIN or Green Beret Tactics or anything else, they can suppress criminal activity but the problem is largely the result of the breakdown of the basic 2 parent Family unit in America. Single parent families do not provide enough supervision and moral guidance for young children and when they get a little older they are prime candidates for recruitment for Gangs. To make matters worse it is not politically correct to have that opinion so I don't see any changes in the future that would help rectify the situation. Again just my opinion.

[MikeF]

Bill,

Bearing in mind that I was not an SF guy nor am I an expert in COIN, I think I can address some of your issues.

I'm not sure that what C3 is trying to address is "why do gangs exist?", it's a complicated issue and I am sure you are right to cite belonging and money as main components of the gang's allure.

What C3 (IMHO) is trying to address is why are the gangs here; a not so subtle distinction. C3 attempts to remove community support from the gangs, both passive and active. The gangs don't feel comfortable operating in the are so they either leave, get out of the business of selling drugs or they get locked up by MSP or SPD. They become low hanging fruit because the community hangs them out to dry. One of the main reasons that gangs thrive in these areas is a fear of the police and general apathy/hostility. Take that away and the gang banger that used to sell drugs on the sidewalk in broad daylight (without a care in the world) is now laying low and running scared.

There are many other components you haven't seen a lot about ( as I am sure you have guessed) involving community programs, jobs etc. These components foster a positive attitude towards the police and their community in general.

This methodology was utilized by ODA 944 in Iraq and Trooper Sarrouf (Capt Sarrouf) and Trooper Cutone (MSgt Cutone) are both assigned to the MSP Special Projects Team and have an incredible amount of input into how the mission is conducted.

I am quite sure that I am not doing C3 justice, but I am open to further discussion.

I don't think that passive support is the root cause of the problems of gangs and drugs in a community.

The gangs are present because a demand exist for illegal drugs.

Conducting raids and locking up the lower level drug dealers and users will not decrease the demand for the drug.

[Bob's World]

Certainly the illegal drug market creates a powerful demand signal that gangs have expanded to fill. Take away that demand signal and gangs will retract accordingly, but still exist.

Many factors surely contribute. Man is social. Look at all of the legal "gangs" like the Elks, VFW, Masons; or bowling and softball leagues, etc, etc, etc.

Mike is right though, that what we may be categorizing as a "gang problem" is really a much deeper problem that the gangs are just a symptom of. Fix the domestic policies that feed this response among young men through "indirect approaches" and one likely makes the challenge of dealing with the gangs that currently emerge from that pool of causation much more manageable. Legalization has to be on the table.

This same logic applies to the US's foreign policy challenge of Violent Extremist Organizations and transnational terrorism. At a tactical level these are "threats" but at a strategic level these are merely symptoms of deeper problems that are rooted in the perceptions of a wide range of foreign populaces. These organizations emerge from populaces that feel provoked by the Western foreign policies that they feel inappropriately shape their respective political and economic situations. One can run a counterterrorism program, much like one can run a counter-gang program, and what one is doing is mitigating the symptoms, while likely at the same time making the provocation of the root causes worse in the execution of said programs.

Less is more. Take a hard look at foreign policies and re-tune them to be less provocative in the world we live in today. We evolve slowly, but we need to come up with a new strategy, a new approach, and announce it to the world and make a major change of course to operationalize the same. We likely would give up little, and potentially could gain much.

I cannot help but look to the Great Britain's strong alliance across the Common Wealth that exists today because Britain wisely opted not to ride a desire for Empire all the way into the ground.

The system developed to contain the Soviets was appropriate enough in its day, but that day is long gone. New approaches must be far less ideologically defined, and much more respective of the sovereignty and rights to self determination of the assorted partner members. We can do this. At home in dealing with criminal gangs, and abroad in dealing with political gangs.

[MikeF]

I would suggest exploring the economic costs of raiding and imprisonment. Below is one cost-prison in the state of Massachusetts.


The Cost to Taxpayers

Overcrowding

• MA prisons are at over 140% of their capacity, with many operating at more than 200% of their intended capacity, and some over 300%.
  
• As of March 2011, there were 11,388 inmates in 18 facilities managed by the Department of Corrections. That number is projected to grow 26% — to almost 14,000 – by 2019.
  
• Parole rates in MA have dropped dramatically, from 58% in 2010 to 35% in 2011.

The Cost to Taxpayers

• It costs about $46,000 a year to house just one inmate in MA, 56% more than the national average.
  
• In 2010, MA spent $514.2 million on prisons, up from $408.6 million in 2001.
  
• Inmates are far more expensive than parolees and those on probation. In 2008, prisons cost an average of $79 per inmate per day, while it costs only $3 to $8 per individual per day to administer parole or probation services.
  
• Massachusetts spends nearly $100 million a year on prisoner health care, nearly double the cost from 2001.